In this episode, John sits down with Jackie Aubel, host of ServiceTitan’s Toolbox for the Trades, to unpack what content actually does for a home service business—and why most people get it wrong from the start.
They break down the real role of podcasting: not a short-term revenue driver, but a long-term play for brand, relationships, and access. Jackie shares how ServiceTitan approaches content as a distribution machine—turning one episode into dozens of touchpoints across social, email, and paid media to stay embedded in the contractor ecosystem.
But the bigger story is what’s happening across the trades.
Just a few years ago, there was almost no content. Now, there’s an explosion—podcasts, newsletters, creators—and a new generation of operators entering with a sharper, business-first lens.
They also get into why most people start content with the wrong expectations, how to define the right goal before you ever hit record, and what it actually takes to sustain something long enough to matter.
If you’re thinking about building an audience—or questioning whether it’s even worth it—this is a clear-eyed look at the tradeoffs, upside, and reality of content in 2026.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why podcasts rarely generate leads (especially early on)
- What content actually does for your business
- Why every podcast should be treated like a content engine
- How to set the right goal before starting
- What’s changed in the trades—and why it matters now
- Why consistency beats early performance, every time
Host: John Wilson
Guest: Jackie Aubel
Host: John Wilson
Guest: Jackie Aubel
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More Ways To Connect with O&O
John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC
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If you're hoping that a podcast is gonna be a pipeline generator for you, probably not That took me five years and 300 episodes. It's really more of a vehicle by which to get your message across. It's also an incredible content generation machine. There is benefit that our core business gets from running a show. We shoot way above our firepower for vendor negotiations or whatever because I'm popular on the internet. The only way you can fi- figure out if this is gonna work for your goals is if you try it. A podcast is just a great way to network with other people. You'd be surprised. Like, why do we talk on the internet? The core piece of advice I always give is Welcome back to Owned and Operated, a top 200 business and entrepreneurship podcast. I'm your host, John Wilson, and today I'm joined by Jackie A ubell from Service Titan's podcast, Tools of the Trade. Join us for an incredible conversation on building an audience inside the trades. Yay. Welcome. Welcome to the show. This is fun to bring you on. Thank you for having me, John. I'm really excited to be here. Always the, always the podcaster, never the guest. 100%. Uh, you're gonna have to forgive me if I accidentally put on my podcaster hat and I flip the interview questions back to you. You flip the... Well, that's actually, that's happened a few times. Uh, I was a guest on someone's show, oh, I don't even remember when it was, and I accidentally flipped it because you, I mean, you've done 300 episodes. Like, you're in, you're in a mode, right? You're gonna get on here, you're gonna ask somebody some questions. I know. I know. I'm always thinking about how, but how, what do, what do you think about it? Yeah. Tell me about your point of view. My point of view doesn't matter. I mean, I guess- Yeah ... it technically does, but- Yeah ... for this moment it does. Today what we're gonna be talking about, I, we, we, we've talked about a little bit off-camera, but, uh, the content in the trades today is very different than ever. Like, more and more coming out all the time, which I think is exciting. You and I are contributors to this epidemic of content for the trades. Um, and I'm just, I'm excited to hear what it was like to, I mean, you guys are on episode two- Two, I think I just recorded episode, like, 278 yesterday. That's amazing. And I think you're gonna be, like, 279 or something. So we're coming close to the 300 mark. We're not quite there yet. Yeah. That's amazing. Um, I wonder at which number I'll feel like I know what I'm doing. Uh, 'cause I think we're, like, three- 304 ... 304, and, uh- Mm-hmm ... I'm not there yet. But, um, but yeah, I think, I wanna talk about just, like, the, the building an audience inside the trades. There's obviously some incredible, uh, shows out there. There's some incredible, uh, newsletters and resources, and you've done an incredible job. So I just wanna, like, talk- Thank you ... about that. I wanna unpack it, and hopefully- Um, there's other people out there now, like a lot of my friends are starting to create inside the trades. I think just seeing like, "Hey, this is kind of a well-trod path now." Yeah. You can start writing to the internet and, uh, they will read it Yeah, I know. It's really incredible. So, um, as we were saying before, uh, as we were saying off mic- Yeah ... uh, I have been working... So I'm, so just to kind of clarify, I'm a little bit different than you, right? You are an owner/operator, obviously- Yeah ... per the name of your podcast. I'm a little different. I am... I host the podcast Toolbox for the Trades- Yeah ... which is a podcast that is presented by ServiceTitan, which is- Mm-hmm ... a CRM, uh, which is a software for, uh, home and commercial service businesses. Uh, you've probably heard of us before. We are now a public company. Mm-hmm. I joined ServiceTitan back in August of 2017, and so I'm coming up on nine years there, and I started the podcast Toolbox for the Trades in April 2020, a really chill time to start anything. Yeah, great time. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I've had the privilege of speaking with contractors, uh, most of them ServiceTitan customers, some of them- Yeah some of them not ServiceTitan customers, most of them are, though, about how they grew their business, and the goal of the show is to share tips, tricks, and tactics, uh, that other contractors can- Mm-hmm ... listen to and hopefully get inspired to adopt in their own businesses. Um, I also think it's a really cool, what, the way I see the show is a, it's a really cool opportunity to showcase entrepreneurs like yourself who have found tremendous success and passion within these industries that we serve. Um- Yeah ... and the more I learn about the entrepreneursh- sh- the entrepreneur's path, the more fascinated I am by it. Um, so when I first started Toolbox for the Trades, I actually had already done podcasting a bit before. I have a background in comedy, stand-up, sketch, and I had a comedy podcast that ran for about 100 episodes in Los Angeles. Uh, we had various amounts of success. I had, uh, so I kinda knew what it was like to interview people. Yeah. But it was very different to interview people who are professional performers and who already know how to entertain- Okay, yeah ... and how to talk about themselves, and I at the time was working at ServiceTitan- Other than a plumber. Other than a plumber. It was like- Um, I- You're, like, explaining how the mic worked. Yeah, totally Totally. Customers today expect to see pricing before they ever reach out, and like it or not, transparency is the new baseline. And homeowners are wanting to understand their options before they even pick up the phone. Instead of fighting that shift, we just leaned into it. That's why we use Contractor Commerce at Wilson. It runs us about 1,600 bucks a month, and we've rolled it across HVAC, plumbing, and electrical. We're using it for generator installs, water heaters, full HVAC replacements, and it is driving real revenue for us. We've had months with 20, 30, and even $40,000 in booked jobs directly through the platform. In strong months, we're seeing double-digit jobs coming straight from our website. What it really does is it turns your website into, like, a guided sales experience, and customers can explore options, they can see some price ranges. And by the time they reach out, they're already educated and informed on what they want. If you're looking to modernize your sales process and capture demand that would otherwise bounce, it is worth checking out. Visit ContractorCommerce.com and book a demo to see how Contractor Commerce turns your website into a 24/7 sales and qualification engine. Exactly, exactly. And so I came onto ServiceTitan as, um, their social media manager, actually. That was my first role. And within the first few weeks of me being there, I asked, like, "Hey, so what content do we have that I can post on our soc- social media channels?" And I think at the time we had a blog that we updated once a month. Yeah. That has completely changed. ServiceTitan, uh, produces an insane amount of content. Apologies to anyone here who gets emails. Sometimes they send them from me. Mm-hmm. Uh, we produce a lot of content across all the various industries that we serve. But at the time, uh, we didn't really have much when I first started. So actually, as a social media manager, I was already proactively reaching out- Yeah ... to some of our customers, um, not just to get content, but to ask them like, "Hey, what do you wanna see? What are you interested in? Tell me your story." Yeah. It was actually in that first year that I spoke to people who I know really well now. Great example, Angie Snow- Mm-hmm ... and Ellen Rohr. I got to meet people and learn about their path and, um, you know, what the trades has to offer. Uh, I happened to get a, a really great boss around that time who saw the opportunity in podcasting, knew that I had a background in podcasting, and was like, "Hey, do you wanna do this for ServiceTitan?" And I was like, "Yes, I will 100% do your podcast, as long as I don't have to edit it" because I did- Yeah ... edit the comedy one, and boy, oh boy, did I make some mistakes there. Um, so when I first kicked off the podcast, I was actually in the process of producing the first season when COVID hit. And all of those initial episodes, I kinda had to explain what a podcast was- Yeah which is insane to even think about now in 2026 as we were talking about off mic. I mean, it's gone through such a... Yeah, it's, I feel like podcasting is, like, the it thing for, like, the last year or two. Mm-hmm. But yeah, there was a 10-year period where I feel like it was like- Weird I, this is my personal beli- this is my personal feeling. Yeah Um, and I don't think it's true anymore. When I first came to ServiceTitan, the vibe I got was that the trades were about, like, five years behind in terms of technology and in terms- Yeah ... of content trends. Yeah. I actually think now that's not true anymore, especially right now we're recording- I think it's flipped, for sure. Yeah Yeah, in 2026- Like, we're ahead, we're ahead of technology as far as I can tell, and there's a lot of content. And also the level that contractors are adopting AI, um, at this rate is pretty- Yeah ... jarring. Like, when I think about the early day- my early days of ServiceTitan when we were trying to convince contractors, "Hey, stop using pen and paper to run your business." Mm-hmm. And now we're hearing... I'm interviewing contractors that have completely reorganized their websites or redeveloped their websites so they can be tracked by LLMs. I'm like, whoa, y'all have... You guys might have started from behind when I joined in 2017, but now in 2026 you guys are kind of at the forefront of- Yeah some technology, which is really cool. Um, so yeah, I've been doing this show. I forgot what your original question was, but yeah, I've been doing the show for about five years now. Um, we have another show called Mastering ServiceTitan- Mm-hmm ... which is more about the actual product. Toolbox for the Trades is a little bit more talking with entrepreneurs like yourself. Um, and it's been a really, really fun ride. I, I think there's, um... It, it's interesting to watch as people, like, new people enter the sort of content ecosystem. Uh, Chris Hoffman started a newsletter I wanna say a year ago, maybe six months ago. My friend Isaac is doing some short form stuff, and he might have a newsletter. Um, obviously, like, Chris, uh, Yano or, and, uh, Chad Peterman and Tommy have had long, well-established shows that are just... You know, they do an incredible job. But it, it's fun to watch, yeah, just more and more people build onto it. Uh, and, like, from, from different angles. Like, you have operators that are, "Hey, here's what happened." You have a show like yours that brings together the top of the industry, the best of the industry, and you have, like, Home Pros, which is, "Hey, here's the news." Yeah. And it's kind... It's, it's becoming a more and more full ecosystem, and I, I love it. I love that we get to be a part of it. Yeah. Home Pros, their content is awesome. I, I, I don't- It's amazing ... I can't- It's amazing. Alex Teamed is incredible. Yeah. I've had him on the show, and we've chatted with him internally. I think what he's doing is awesome. Yeah. I'm like, this is exactly the kind of resource that the trades- Yeah ... needs, and, um, I'm really excited to see how that company grows. All right. I wanna talk a little bit about you, you launched the podcast inside, like, "Hey, here's the opportunity." Can you walk me through the benefit to ServiceTitan? What I'm hoping the sort of listener gets from this is, "Should I be thinking about doing this? How does this benefit our business?" Like, what's the intangibles? Like, why do we talk on the internet? Sure. Um, I think the biggest thing that we wanted to... Well, not I think, I know the biggest thing that we wanted to communicate through the podcast is that ServiceTitan is and c- and con- will continue to be in talks with contractors. Uh, that is something- Okay ... that our founders, Ara and Vahe, are very passionate about, talking with our customers, making sure that our employees- Yeah s- uh, are hearing directly from our customers about their pain points, what they're trying to do, how they're trying to be successful. And Toolbox for the Trades, th- its very existence establishes the fact that we are talking with contractors. Uh, quite a few of the listeners of the show are really just ServiceTitan employees. Yeah. When I first joined ServiceTitan, um, there was a sense, I don't think it's there anymore, but there was a sense of, "Hey, who are these tech people who are coming in and telling me that I need this, this to run my business?" There was kind of like contractors versus, not versus, but it was like this, it was, there was the contracting world- Yeah and then there was the tech world. And Ara and Vahe have always been really passionate about, uh, b- merging those two together. Yeah. And even today, they are very passionate about sharing customer stories, sharing customer experiences. We're always trying to get customer feedback so we can make our product and our customer service better. So that is one of the big brand plays with Toolbox for the Trades. Um, it's kind of establishing what is one of our company values. In addition to that, um, it also helps us platform our customers, right? Yeah. At ServiceTitan, we believe that, uh, when our customers are successful, we are successful. So Toolbox for the Trades is a platform by which we get to celebrate our customers and share- Mm-hmm their success. And ins- and hopefully their success, we believe, will inspire the rest, o- other customers and non-customers to also grow their business. Yeah. Um, in terms of why would I do a podcast, right? I'm, I will tell you right now, if you're hoping that a podcast is gonna be a pipeline generator for you, probably not. Yeah, that took me five years- ... and 300 episodes. Probably not. Yeah. Um, it is a- I think we made money somewhere around, like, year four, is when it actually- Yeah ... started, like, producing Yeah And do you guys run, do you guys run ads on Owned & Operated? I can't remember. Yeah, we have awesome, uh, partners. We have, like, a workshop. That one's kind of like a give back thing, but, um- Mm-hmm ... we have a workshop. We have two of them a year. So that's one thing I always like to say to people is, like, if you're trying to make money, like a direct, like, one episode equals this much in profit- Yeah ... or this much in revenue, th- this isn't really the case. This really isn't the, the venue for you. It's really more of a vehicle by which to get your message across and communicate your, uh- Yeah ... to get your brand out there, communicate your values. It's also an incredible content generation machine. Yeah. So every single episode that we do on Toolbox, uh, again, to those ServiceTitan customers who know who I am, recognize my name, I apologize for the way you've been waterboarded with my face- and voice over the last however many years. But each of our podcasts, what we do is we chop them up into little clips. Yeah. We put them on our various paid media and organic media channels, on social, on email, and we use those to nurture and engage, because guess what? Listening to conversati- listening to conversations, watching 30 minute, uh, 30-second clips, 15-second clips is a lot more engaging than reading a boring old email or a boring old white paper. So it's just, like, another vehicle by which- Mm-hmm ... to generate, um, to, to communicate a message and to amass a following. There's, there's, uh, there's so many different ways to, to do it, and, like, the motive for each is different. So for ServiceTitan, like, we're here serving customers, we're talking to people. Uh, we're showcasing our partners. For us, like, we're just talking to the industry, and there's not a direct correlation. Uh, like, there is benefit that our core business gets from running a show. Uh, we can talk to almost anyone we want, which is awesome. Like, we- Yeah ... shoot way above our firepower for vendor negotiations or whatever because I'm popular on the internet. But I think it, for, like, most contractors, the, the correlation isn't like, "Hey, my energy in Owned & Operated drives revenue for Wilson." It doesn't. It doesn't at all. Might actually even be a detractor. Uh, so I think if someone's thinking about an audience, like, y- you can do it a few different ways, and I think this is a good contrast where, hey, I'm talking to the industry, I'm sharing, I'm learning. But a lot of people now are also building, like, a local newsletter, local podcast. Have you seen any of these yet? Yeah, I have actually. Yeah. And I've also seen, I've also seen businesses create just internal podcasts. Um- Totally. Yeah ... and I mean, at the end of the- Well, I think that's how Chad's show started, was internal to his own team, and now it's an incredible show. Like, I love listening to his show. Yeah. I mean, there's a, there... Listen, if you like to talk- If you wanna talk to people, if you learn through conversation- Yeah ... if this is something that interests you, I would say go for it. Yeah. Um, whenever people ask me advice of like, "Oh, should I start a podcast? Is this something I should... Is this something I should do?" My, the, the core piece of advice I always give is pick a goal. Like, what, what are you trying to achieve with this podcast? Yeah. Like, at the end of the day, if you get no downloads, if you get no reviews, nothing, like, what i- what is your main goal? What are you trying to achieve? And then I say, you know, put a m- like, decide how many episodes you're going to produce. Is it gonna be, uh... 'Cause when I started my comedy podcast, which was a weekly podcast, my co-host and I, we recorded two podcasts, and then we looked at each other and we were like, "Oh, crap, I guess we gotta do this every week now." Oh, yeah. So actually- Yeah, it's a very real... Yeah, so like- 'Cause we've been, we've been dropping two episodes a week for two years. That's- Like- ... crazy. And that's because you have a full staff who's helping you produce this. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Like, and because there are so many podcasts, it- it's interesting, it's like the barrier to entry is low. However, I think audiences are less forgiving of bad audio, and you have to be a video podcast at this point. Yeah. There's not an option to be audio only, unless you're doing, like, a fiction podcast, which is a whole different story. Um, so I always advise people, like, walk through what the goal of the podcast is, like what you're trying to achieve with it. Mm-hmm. And then record, you know, one, two, three episodes. Produce them, polish them, get them the way you want, and s- Yeah ... and see how much it's gonna cost you, see how much time it's gonna take, and see if you actually enjoy the process, because if you really wanna see gains from it, it's gonna take time. Um, I know that this is a bad example, because the SEO world has been turned upside down with AI. Mm-hmm. But it's similar to SEO in that it's an organic channel that takes time to grow it, and it is a time commitment that you have to buy into. So if you don't enjoy the process producing those first few episodes, that's okay. Move on. Find something else. Yeah, yeah. But if you do, if you like talking like you and I do, um, you could have a really good time. And to your point, you know, we talked about this on my show, a podcast is just a great way to network with other people. Yeah. Um, you'd be surprised. People are usually pretty willing to get on a video call and talk- Yeah ... about themselves for an hour. Yeah. It's, I mean, the, the joke that we have around here is, like, if you don't know the answer to a problem, hand a white man a po- a microphone. Yeah. Yeah. It works every time. Yeah, genuinely. Genuinely. So yeah. But it, it's a really cool medium, and if you like talking like me, if you like talking- Yeah ... like John, I think it's a great thing to try out. Yeah. And like I said, you can use that podcast content, and you can cut it up a bunch of different ways. You can repackage it, um, repurpose it. You know, whatever floats your boat Yeah. We had, uh, we had a, a gentleman named, uh, Ethan on the show, I wanna say last summer, and, um, he was building a local newsletter. He's just north of Manhattan. Oh. I don't remember the county. But he had a p- uh, a, what's it called? Rolling Suds power washing brand. Uh, so they power wash. And, uh, so he started building this local newsletter, and we talked about it a lot on his episode, 'cause it's kind of an interesting idea. Uh, because the concept there was obviously not a podcast, but, "Hey, can I go build an audience for my home service brand that somehow directly correlates, uh, my home, home service brand?" But, like, the content they were sharing was local news or, "Here's the events this weekend inside the city." Um, I gotta check in with him and see how it's going. But it, it was really interesting because it, it was a different take on like, "Hey, I can build an audience and this directly correlates, like directly benefits my, my business." Mm-hmm. Have you talked to... And have you had anyone on the show that's like built an audience like that, like a local big audience? The funniest example might be like the Lee Company with Governor Lee in Nashville. Like he's got a big audience, and he's got a big company. Um, so I, I don't... I'm trying to think of some others. Um, well, I- I'm thinking of Alex of Home Pros obviously. Yeah. Um, I think he's been really successful in the kind of stuff that he's done. Yeah. Um, and I th- know for his case exactly, he kind of just noted... He actually, if I'm recalling his story correctly, he also came from the tech space, came from the software space within the trades. I think it was like Jobber or Housecall or it- Something ... I thought it was something like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he recognized that there was a need for this. Yeah. Um, and so I think that is critical to developing an audience. Like- Mm-hmm ... what need are you solving for them? And for Alex's case, Home Pros case, it was, "I want to create a roll-up of all of the relevant HVAC news that's going to impact, um, the industry." Yeah. And through that he just began to grow naturally. So when thinking about like a local newsletter, um, I'm thinking that you wanna try and make it as customizable to those locals as possible. I also know that on the Home Pro side, he's pretty, at least I haven't checked in in a minute, but he was pretty adamant about collecting feedback from his, from his, uh, readers. So he would always have like a, "Are you enjoying this newsletter? Share it with a friend," or, "Hey, give feedback on this newsletter. What do you wanna see?" And that kind of stuff. So constantly having that two-way communication between his audience- Yeah ... I think has been really helpful. Have you seen any examples of like, "Hey, this didn't serve anything"? I've seen a few that I feel like they didn't start with your concept of like what are you trying to build? What are you trying to do with this? Um, I saw someone the other day- And they had an incredible YouTube channel. Like, it was incredible. It was, uh, I don't even know. It was like 100,000 subs. Um, and it was, uh, like how to fix, how to fix stuff in your home, which- Mm-hmm is great. It's great content. Um, and, like, huge success in the channel. The problem is I think that they started it with the idea that it would help their core business. But, like, the reality is that's gonna be watched worldwide, and you're not gonna get paid very much to do it. So, like, it didn't help the business, and it also, like, wasn't a business in and of itself. Mm-hmm. Have you seen that, the other examples like that? I personally- 'Cause, like, their customers in whatever city they're in aren't gonna, like, look up how to fix this thing and then call them. You're not losing jobs because you're bad, you're losing them because you're busy. It only takes one missed call, one delayed text, one forgotten follow-up, and that job and customer is gone. And that's exactly what Quo fixes. Quo brings in every customer conversation, like calls, texts, voicemails, into one shared thread your entire team can see. So whoever jumps in next has the full context right away. There's no scrambling, there's no crossed wires, nothing's slipping through the cracks anymore. It keeps your team aligned, speeds up your response time, and makes your customer experience feel dialed in every time. If you want tighter communication and fewer lost leads, check out Quo at quo.com/owned. You'll get a seven-day free trial plus 20% off your first six months. That's actually a really good example of what you were looking for. I personally, typically speaking, uh, on my show, people love to talk about the things that went really well, and I have to really pull out the things that didn't go well. Mm-hmm. And when I do that, I kinda have to say, "Hey, just by you sharing what didn't go well, um, you can potentially help some listeners- Avoid it not, not make that same mistake." It's so funny, 'cause then sometimes, like, we'll cut the interview short, and they'll be like, "Oh my God, I should have told you about, like..." And then they'll tell me the story that's, like, completely out of pocket. I'm like- You got, you always gotta- ... "Why didn't you do that?" Yeah, you, you always got to fake turning, "It's okay. It's no- totally no longer recording." Yeah, it's to- Yeah ... I was like, "What?" Or sometimes I'll do pre-interviews with people, and they'll be like, "Well, I don't wanna talk about this on the podcast, but..." And then they'll drop, like, the juiciest piece of gossip- Oh my gosh. That's hilarious ... that is re- that relates to their business growth, that relates to their personal life. And I'm like, "But I can't talk about it? Okay." That's so funny. Um, I think there's... Like, I can't, I genuinely can't think of anything that I've seen that- Yeah ... didn't work out that way. Um- I would say though from kind of going onto my other world, right, like the comedy world where I... 'Cause I still, like I live in Los Angeles. Yeah. I moved to LA from New York City. I've been surrounded by artists and creators my whole life. Um, what I see not work on those ends is instead of pivoting when you realize something isn't achieving the goal you want, people just give up. And so my advice is to pivot, figure out what, and like try and fix something instead of- Yeah throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Yeah. Um, and then continuing to be persistent. You've been able to interview most of the top of our industry. Yeah, I have. Which has to feel pretty awesome. Yeah. Uh, what are some, what are some highlights? Like, what are some, like this was an awesome conversation, I learned X? First off, I loved every single one of my interviews. They were all incredible. And they were all my favorite. They were all my favorite. Yeah. Um, no, I, um, obviously there are def- Especially number 46, I think. Yeah. Especially number 46 with John Wilson. Um, there are of course some big highlights that come to mind. Um, obviously when I interviewed Ken Goodrich, he was- Mm-hmm ... my s- very first episode, and then he was also episode 100. Yeah. So that was kind of like wild, like being able to interview this guy. We, we had him on the show a couple weeks or months ago. It was an incredible conversation. Yeah. It's really interesting, 'cause he's like kind of a behemoth in the industry, and everybody like talks him up, but he actually locks in when he's having a conversation, which I think is really cool. He was very focused, yeah. Yeah. I've had Tommy on a couple times. Mm-hmm. I've had Ishmael on a couple times. Uh, I did one or two episodes back in the day, and I think one of the most impactful episodes for me was with Ishmael, and it was the day I almost quit the trades. 'Cause I wanted Ishmael to come on because, um, I don't go on Facebook as much anymore because my mental health can't handle it. But back when I was, uh, back when I was really going through the Service Titan Masterminds group and the other- Mm-hmm ... best practices group on Facebook, you know, Ishmael's on those all the time, and always- Yeah ... with his fire emojis everywhere and success, success, success. And I was like, "Damn, I want you to come on, and I want you to tell me about the day you almost quit. Like, tell me about- Yeah ... what almost broke you, because there's so many people out there that idolize you, and I wanna hear about when, how you almost didn't make it." And he was so chill about it, and he was so open and so authentic. Mm-hmm. And that is always going to be, those episodes are always gonna be the ones that stick out the most to me. Um, I... It's so interesting, because this has been my job. Um, me and, I have two other, uh, podcast hosts on my team, Josh Lou and Manda Salvatore, and between the three of us, we sometimes joke that sometimes we'll do an interview and the interview ends- We go back, we do other Service Titan work and by the end of the day we're like, "What the hell did we talk to that person about? I don't even remember what that episode was about." Mm-hmm. But there's, like, bits and pieces that pop up every once in a while. There was one guy, I wish I could remember his name, but he told me he was in a helicopter crash, and he was married at the time. And as his helicopter was plummeting to the earth, his thought was, "Oh, no, what's gonna happen to my business?" And not, "Oh, no, I'm gonna divorce my... What's gonna happen to my wife?" And he ended up divorcing his wife 'cause it was a sign to him that this wasn't the relationship for him. And I'm like, "What a crazy thing to reveal on a Service Titan podcast. But hey, I'm here for it, and I remember it still." Um, so yeah. That is interesting. I would say the big ones are good, but then also, like, looking... I'm, I'm cheating and I'm looking at my Spotify feed to see if there's... You know what? I should go on the website and then- Mm-hmm ... look at faces, 'cause that will be easier for me. One thing that has been really cool about my show, um, when I first started serv- the podcast, I was really trying to be intentional, intentional about featuring women in the trades. Yeah. Because obviously it's a male-dominated industry, and in the first seasons of 2020- Hold on, since when? Since 2021, 2020. 2020, 2021. Yeah. It was so hard for me to find women who, uh, could ta- who I could talk to who were running their own businesses or whatever, and that is not the case anymore. Oh, yeah, not at all. Uh- It is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is pretty cool. We, we don't get a lot, but once a month I think we're... Or every other mon- It, it... We push for it as often as we can, but, um, yeah, it, it is cool. Yeah. Um, a really great one that was recent is episode 238 with Katie Higgins- Mm-hmm ... the owner of True Pros. Do you know her? Mm-mm. So she was, like, a top HVAC salesperson. She started her own business, and she did 6 million in her first year. Whoa. Yeah. That's crazy. That was pretty incredible, and that's because she come, she came from a sales background. Yeah, yeah. And so that was her focus. I, I always, like... I always ca- sort of wish that that was the background I came from. Like, I... You know, everyone just brings whoever they are to their business, um, for better or worse. And, like, I do not come from a sales background. I wish I did. Uh, but I don't come from the marketing background, I don't come from s- from the sales background. And you hear some of these incredible stories and you're like, "Man." Uh, but they came in with this, like, innate talent of just driving at that one thing. Yeah. Um, another one that was really memorable recently was Catherine Howard- Mm-hmm ... uh, who, of Lee's Air. Yeah. Um, episode 216. Uh, you, I can, because I don't have to be edited on this show, she talks about her first job, uh, after getting out of prison, where she was selling bedroom accessories. Nice. And now she's the head of mergers and acquisitions at Lee's. I don't know if her title has since changed, but talking, her talking about her, like, personal, um- That would be a journey, yeah ... transformation was great. I mean, I've had Stephanie Allen on a couple times. Yeah. Every episode I have with her is great. Um, honestly, they're all real... Oh, Lincoln, uh, Walpole from, uh, Any Hour. Yeah. He gave a great one on KPIs. Yeah. They're all great. Like, it's really interesting just to see how the trades changes and evolves, um, and the cool- Yeah ... things that people are doing across, across the board. I'm, I'm curious what your take is on this, but the trades, there was some consolidation in the teens, but it seemed like it really hit fever pitch, like, 20, 21, 22, 23. And, like, now it doesn't feel like we're in this, as much of an M&A, like, universe. So, like, are you guys still interviewing with PE firms? Like, I, are, are, like, what's it look and feel like? What's the content look and feel like? You know, it's interesting. You are correct. Like, in 2021, 2022, I could not- Yeah, it was all wrench groups and yeah, of course. Yeah, it was all- Like, that's what was active at the time. Yeah. I have, I've have interviewed quite a few PE groups. I've also interviewed people that are adamant about they don't want to partner with PE. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that there are... You know, and I've heard mixed reviews, uh, some on air and, but a lot off mic about good and bad experiences with PE. What I'm seeing recently is a lot of people focusing on what they can control, doing their own thing, and I don't think the folks I've interviewed or interacted with are as eager to sell as maybe they were in 2021, 2022. Any input on why? You're, you're talking to them. You know, what, what's coming up? Like, you've had way more PE... I'm, I haven't had the amount of, like, private equity shows or, uh, like, teams on our, on our show, mainly 'cause it just tends to be owner/operators in that, like, sub-10 range. I think, uh, this is complete my, my assumption on what I'm thinking. Mm-hmm. Like, this is just Jackie's opinion. I don't know if this is- Let's do it this is fact. I feel like 2021, 2022, we saw a mass of M&A. Um, I think since that has happened, uh, obviously we've had some economic impacts that- Yeah ... you know, we had the big COVID boom, and then kind of, like, the pulling back from the COVID boom. Yeah. But I think we had a ton of sales, and then, um, now the- The dust has settled on those sales, and I think folks are, have seen, they've seen super success stories, but they've also seen some not so success stories. Yeah. And I think they're being a lot more cautious than they may have been in 2021, 2022. Like, the vibe I got and during those interviews, uh, uh, at the beginning of this decade were everyone was so excited. Like, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, I didn't think I would ever be able to make this kind of, to do this type of exit or to attain this type of wealth through this, my business. I'm so excited about this." And now I think folks are a little bit more, I don't wanna say wary, but a little bit more... They have more consideration and more knowledge, so they maybe aren't acting as quickly. That's my personal take. And this, like, this is just, like, a general industry observation. Uh, so our own story's a good example of it, but I can think of a lot of others. But it, in, uh, 2020, 2021, like, we were a, still a relatively smaller shop, like four or five, uh, million dollars a year of revenue. And now we're not, right? Like, we're- we're larger. And I think that there's, like, this, um, I'm thinking of it as replenishment. There's, like, this generation of replenishment where all of the big companies were acquired or- or most of them, and, uh, most of the big dogs that I can think of today didn't exist five years ago. Like- Hmm ... uh, I- I don't know if you've had Matt from CallThat on your show, but he's one of my favorite operators, and his company literally didn't exist in, like, 2018, 2019. And to- I think they're gonna do 80 million this year. Yeah. Or Sammy from Apex Pros, I- I think you did have him on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he didn't exist at all until, like, 2022, and they're gonna do 50-something this year. Um, and I have a lot of friends in this, like, 30, 40, 50, 60, like, going towards 80, and their companies didn't even exist during the, like, heyday of acquisitions. So I'm fascinated to see what happens. Like, what happens? Uh, the in- is the industry talking to them? 'Cause it feels like they've sort of been ignored, and suddenly, well, hey, that, that guy didn't exist four years ago, and now he's the largest in Columbus. Like, what happened? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you're also touch- touching upon something that I'm noticing too. Uh, I've, or I've noticed dur- during my pod, which is in the five years that we've been running, the last, like, two or three years, I'm seeing a lot more millennials who do not come from the industry- Yeah at all coming in- Yes ... and building their own business because they're seeing the opportunity there, and they're seeing that, uh, the ser- the home services especially are- is a great business model. Yep. Um, and it's a recession-proof- I think my friend- ... generally AI-proof ... Isaac Zimmerman was on your show. Yeah. He was, yeah. Yeah, and he, um, like again, his company, like he bought it in '22, I think. Mm-hmm. And they went from 6 million to 40 this year in- Yeah ... 36 months or 40 months or something. It's crazy. Yeah, it's really interesting. He wasn't even in the industry in 2022. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and actually yesterday I spoke with, uh, the leadership team at Iceberg Home Services. Their episode I think is gonna come out right before the episode I do with you. Mm-hmm. And their COO graduated college in 2021, and she couldn't find a job in an industry she thought she, she wanted to work in, and now she's a chief operating officer at a growing and thriving home services company. That's interesting. So I... I know. So it... I have been noticing that trend in my interviews, that you're seeing more people come from outside of the trades- Yep ... um, at the beginning of their career- Most of my friends- ... and mid-career ... bought their way in. Like, I don't- Yeah ... have many friends that, um, built their business from the trades, they ever touched a tool. Most of them bought their business five or six years ago, and they turned it into what it is today. Yeah. I mean, that's really impressive. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes things up, too. I wonder if, like, the overall M&A boom that you and I saw, is like that happening, and I wonder if that's, uh, an, an aftereffect of that. Could be. I think, um, yeah, the trades were starting to get popular at that time. I know a lot of people, uh, bought and then they turned it into, you know, whatever it is now. Um, I also think y- someone's coming in and they're thinking of it like a business, where a typical tradesperson has not thought of it like a business. Exactly. Uh, and I, and I think, y- you know, it's just dragging up the average contractor. So it's interesting to see all these trends grow. Again, like this, the... When I first joined the industry, even though I'm, you know, I work for a vendor, we were trying to convince people to get off pen and paper, and now this. Yeah. And that's not- Yeah ... even a decade. So it's really incredible to see how the industry is growing. Well, what would, what would you, how would you leave this for the audience if they're thinking about creating content for their business? And I can think of, like, five or six people, uh, that are like, it's starting to explore, like, "Well, how do I do this? Like, what, what do I wanna do?" I would say the first thing to do is to consider, again, like what your goal with creating content is. Yeah. Are you trying to drum up business for... Are you trying to get leads for your current business? Are you trying to build your personal brand? That's a very different thing. Uh, what is your overall goal? Like, what message do you wanna get across with your content? From there, I think you could spin up a gazillion different ideas. Yeah. And there's a bunch of different ways to deliver your content, right? You could do a blog. You could do podcasts. You could do webinars. Webinars are more of a B2B thing, but you, I don't know, you could try them out. You could do livestreams. Uh, you could get r- you could create a neighborhood Facebook group. Yeah. Uh, there's a bunch of different things that you could start doing, but you wanna think about what is the overall, what, what do I hope this does for my business? Yeah. What's my goal for it? And think about how you're going to measure it. Um, so this way, as you're rolling out a content program, you can measure, uh, if it's being, if it's successful or not, and you can pivot. Um, I would definitely think about working with some sort of content specialist who can help point you in the right way. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, talk to people, see what other people have done, uh, see what has worked well for them, um, and come up with a plan. Think about, like, I think it's really easy to get lost in content. It's really easy to put content on the back burner. But come up with a plan of like, okay, this is what I want to, it to look like in three months. This is what I want it to look like in six months. Yeah. And if I don't hit those marks, how am I gonna pivot? How am I gonna change? So I'm someone who loves to jump into something without planning. Don't do that. Have you ever bought enterprise level software and realized that managing it really just became a full-time job? 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Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like sort of relentless. I mean, I've been on a production schedule for five years. You've been on a, you know, it's ki- it's kind of a lot. It's a really big undertaking. Yeah. It can be a whole lot of fun. It can be really, um, it can be really rewarding. Yeah. But also, I d- if we're, if I'm speaking to mainly owners up here, like, think about, like, when it comes to a podcast, you have to consider scheduling, you have to consider prep, you have to consider- Mm audio, video. You have to consider- Post, yeah ... post-production, which is a b- giant beast. Um, so think about how, similar how as you would look at your marketing budget, think about how much you're willing to, uh, pay for this type of service. Um, do your homework. Do research to see, like, what you like, what you want your voice to be. Yeah. And, um, and kind of go from there. But my, my suggestion would be to outsource, um, or to find someone internally. Mm-hmm. Like, you have John Matteo on your team, who it seems like runs your h- entire pod- who runs your podcast operation. I'm pretty sure you could not do this by yourself, right? Yeah. We have, I think we have six full-time team members. And that's- Might be seven with post, but it's, is a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. So, you know, you gotta think about what it is. And, like, you can do content a- in a lot of different ways, right? Um, podcasts are pretty high touch, high quality content. Yeah. But you could also start going live on TikTok or on Instagram. Like- Yeah ... you have to think about what the goal for your content is and figure out how to measure it along the way. Yeah. And I think just, uh, look at what other people are doing, um, and, like, do you want that? You know, I have a f- I have a friend, uh, Cole, and he had a roofing business, and he launched a, a incredibly successful YouTube channel, and I'm, like, so pumped up for him. Um, he's having, like, million view long forms. Like, he, it's going incredibly. That's awesome. And, um, he, he and I were texting about this, like, a, I don't know, six months ago or something. And he's like, "Yeah, like, the YouTube channel is insane. It's exploding. It's, like, crazy growth, and it's not doing a singular thing for the roofing business." Uh, so I d- and b- I actually think he might have sold the roofing business and gone full-time on content. Um, but I just think, yeah, just reiterating, like, really th- be really thoughtful. Like, if you're putting a bunch of stuff on the internet, your customers are probably not the people that are gonna consume it s- like, unless it's B2B and you're selling something B2B. But, um, yeah, it, more likely it'll just be somebody. So, like, how does it, how does it combine with your grand plan? Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, I, when I was doing social media, which, uh, I'm, I must say I'm very happy is not my full-time any- anymore. Shout out to all the social media professionals out there. A lot of you out there. Um, yeah. Uh, the thing that's tough about the content world is it is really saturated. Mm-hmm. Um, and especially when we're looking at, you know, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, whatever. Yeah. You're competing with people's favorite creators. You're competing with baby announcements and marriage announcements and- Yeah all of these things. So give yourself some grace, and also some... You have to start somewhere. The only way you can fi- figure out if this is gonna work for your goals is if you try it. Yeah. So I would encourage folks to get out there and just start testing, but also be really mindful about what you're trying to measure, what you're trying to succeed, and pivot accordingly. And it's also totally fine to be like, "You know what? This probably isn't for me." I agree. Not probably, but this might not be for me. Well, thanks for coming on today. This was a ton of fun. Thank you so much, Sean. I really had a great time. If you like what you heard, make sure you like and sub
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