In this episode of Owned and Operated, we're digging into what it really takes to lead a growing home service business. From SOPs to scaling strategies, we’re spotlighting the habits and leadership traits that drive operational clarity and empower teams.
We’re joined by Brandon Niro, who shares how his role evolved since joining the company in 2019—navigating growth from 30 to over 60 employees, integrating acquisitions, and shifting from tactical execution to strategic coaching and development.
Whether you're a team lead or an operator scaling fast, this episode offers actionable insights into building systems, coaching talent, and creating autonomy inside a service business.
🔹 In This Episode, We Cover:
How SOPs streamline operations and unlock autonomy
Coaching vs. doing: leadership in a growing team
Transitioning from tactical roles to strategic leadership
Navigating the growth curve—from 30 to 60+ employees
Open-book management and building a transparent culture
Why documenting processes fuels long-term scale
🌐 More resources: https://www.ownedandoperated.com
👤 Hosted by:
John Wilson
👤 Guest:
Brandon Niro
💼 Special Thanks to First Internet Bank!
Looking to buy or expand a business?
First Internet Bank is a National Preferred SBA lender specializing in acquisitions for the skilled trades. Their SBA loan program offers up to 90% financing for business acquisitions, partner buyouts, and commercial real estate—plus optional lines of credit to fuel future growth. Unlike traditional lenders, they take a “how can we” approach, making deals happen for both first-time buyers and experienced operators.
👉 Special Offer: Mention Owned and Operated for a reduced good faith deposit and a complimentary deal review + buyside prequalification.
Connect with Alan Peterson from First Internet Bank here to get started!
💡 Shoutout to Avoca AI!
Avoca is helping home service companies level up with 24/7 AI call handling, performance insights, and targeted coaching.
214_audio final
John Wilson: [00:00:00] What we're talking about today is traits needed to lead inside a business. I had a urge and a tendency to hate SOPs, and we know now that SOPs are, are life.
Brandon Niro: I think the ability to execute fast is really important. Mm-hmm. And like speed is really important. Sort of handout, distribute, give access.
We've learned very fast that the best possible chance for success is growth within our own team.
Welcome back to Owned and Operated. Today we have a very special guest, uh, very special. Brandon Niro. Welcome to the show. It's good to be. Yeah, it was a long walk
Speaker 3: from the building
Brandon Niro: across the parking lot, uh, when we launched the show back in 20. 21 like four years ago. Four, a little over four years ago. Uh, I think your episode number two, your story's amazing.
I think it's really cool. Everybody make sure you check on episode number two. [00:01:00] And, uh, we ran it for a while, then we got super busy 'cause we bought a bunch of businesses and things started getting busy. Things started getting busy. Um, so today we're having you back on, which is fun. You're our third leader from Wilson.
On the show we had Jesse, we had Laurie. Um, and I think it's been fun each time and what we're talking about today is, uh, traits needed to lead to, you know, be a leader inside a business. And maybe that's moving from a manager to a leader or like, what's the difference there? And then I've shared a lot, you know, my own side of this, but.
What's the tr? What stages have you gone through? Um, so that's not really a question. That's more just like topical. What we'll be covering today sounds like fun. Sounds like fun.
Jack Carr: Probably one of the most important decisions you can make in your ETA journey is which SBA lender. You are gonna pick a lender who will be in your corner to get you closed on the deal, as well as set you up for [00:02:00] future expansion.
That is why we partnered with Alan Peterson from First Internet Bank. He and his team take a how can we approach as well as I personally know they specialize in home service acquisitions. Mention the show or my handsome bald head and receive a reduced good faith deposit, as well as a detailed deal review and maybe even a buy-side pre-qualification, no strings attached.
Head on over to Alan FIB. Dot com. That's A-L-A-N-F-I b.com, or click the link below to get connected.
Brandon Niro: Well, how about we just sort of hit the, the story side of it, which is, hey, the business has grown a lot like you and I started working together in 2019, and the business was like in the threes, like 3.8 or five or something.
Uh, I think it was three and a half, roughly. Yeah. Three and a half. Like just under 30 total employees.
Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. Yeah. That is [00:03:00] funny. Now, like the, well, for a lot of reasons, but like, one of the big reasons is like, um, I'll talk to people, like, I had somebody on the show a couple weeks ago, and, uh, and he's a new, like, new business, he's also very productive.
Mm-hmm. So like per employee revenues, like. $800,000. It's crazy. Like, it's totally crazy. And I just, I just like, I remember running like 2 million bucks with like 20 people. Yeah. Like, and now like 2 million bucks is like four. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just crazy. Um, but yeah. I, I wanna, I think I want to just dive into like how you've seen your leadership change as we've gone from, I mean, 30 people to a.
60 ish now, and you know the different levels you saw throughout. That sounds like fun. Yeah, let's do it. I mean, where do you wanna start there?
Speaker: I guess we can start back at the, the beginning right? When I came on, right. That's kind of lays the [00:04:00] framework for it. Yeah. Uh, I guess it was interesting right?
When we, so when we first started, it was right when you brought on, um. Certain path. SGI, right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker: So we go through that whole
Brandon Niro: give 'em a shout out.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: They were great. Certain path. Yeah. Well it used to be SGI. Yeah. They were something else before that too. Airtime or something. Yeah. And now certain path.
Speaker: That was a, the first major thing. So it was very hands-on. Mm-hmm. Very into the weeds on things. Uh, I had been familiar with implementing. A best practice kind of book, right? Yeah, yeah. Per se. Yeah, because you,
Brandon Niro: you had implemented, uh, uh, franchise.
Speaker: Yeah, I think you called it like, it's a business in a box.
Right? It's like,
Brandon Niro: it's, that's how I think of certain Path franchise. Um, that's honestly, like, this isn't the point of this, but I never really got like, the hate on franchises because like, nexstar in certain path, like are basically franchises. Like they don't rip. Percentages outta your pocket, but like it's [00:05:00] all the tools that's the same thing.
Scratches. Yeah. Might as well. Like it's the same, it's the same shit. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's, it was, it felt very similar, right? 'cause it was the same, totally same thing as just how you pay your guys, here's how
Brandon Niro: you charge, here's how they should dress. Here's how you walk into a house. It's just nicer. 'cause you didn't have to then it's not pay a big percentage
Speaker: for it.
But that was. You know, obviously very different from right now. It was a very hands-on, it was in the field. It was daily ridealongs Yeah. Technician base. Right. I didn't, I had direct reports in the field. I did not have direct reports that were managers.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker: Uh, so you did one? Uh, not at the very beginning, no.
Huh?
Speaker 3: Because
Speaker: I, I, uh, the install manager at the time, I grabbed that I think about six months in, but it was after. Certain path, huh? I think I was being over courageous at the time and you had to tell me to stop a couple times when I wanted to take over install. Okay. Like, Hey, how about, how about you implement this first?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, we were young once. Oh yes. But it [00:06:00] was, it was nice. 'cause it felt familiar to me. Right. It was, I understood the process. Yeah. It made sense. I could get behind the sales process. I. The price book was probably the hardest thing, frankly, I struggled with because I didn't understand the industry yet.
So trying to understand what plumbing was, right. Yeah. Spent a substantial amount of the time in the field, not only implementing the process, but just understanding what was plumbing, what was hvac.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Um. That I think SGI was probably the biggest benefit for me, frankly, because of implementing that. It was kind of like, you know, add steps, maybe some guard rails.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: It was, it forced me to understand everything 'cause I was implementing and learning as I went. Yeah. Versus trying to jump on a train that was already doing 60 miles an hour. We were building the train as we went through that process. So it just made it very easy to get up to speed. Uh, in that though, was also John and is John, uh, acquiring I do this?
Yeah. Uh, the, the acquisitions started obviously through that [00:07:00] process, which that's when things really, I feel like started to kind of speed up through there. Mm-hmm. Um, we, six
Brandon Niro: months in, we acquired, or three months in, we acquired, uh, Nathan Small.
Speaker: Yep. And that was the, kinda the first, thankfully small. It was a good taste of like, okay, what does this look like?
Um, the big one then obviously afterwards, downs.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, and that was probably the first like shock to the system of, okay, this is. Multi-location at that point. Now there's a few managers that I'm working with still very heavily direct in the field. Um, at that point, again, still felt comfortable to me because I had been in that style of a role before managing a manager.
Mm-hmm. Uh, still working directly with technicians. The multi-location was a new factor, so Right. Thankfully it was very close. It was over 15 minutes down the street, so it wasn't. You know, two hour drive had to fully manage something remote. Yeah. But it gave kind of a good sense of you can't always be in both locations, so you have to start figuring out how to manage through people truly, and how to depend on [00:08:00] others to do things.
Uh, and that was, and that was, that was like
Brandon Niro: 30 to 45. I think that was the jump of employees, because I think they had 12 or 13. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. That one, I don't know that throughout everyone, this probably hear me say this like a broken record. Uh, I don't know if I would've successfully made through that if I didn't have you on the backside pushing, because I think any, any person who has been operationally tactical in working directly with people in the field, you're gonna have that want and that urge and desire to go back to that as soon as you see something starting to go awry, um, of which I know I felt perpetually, I still feel to this day.
Right. You see something happening, you just wanna put hands on it. You're a rapper. Yeah. Um. Which is great in some cases, in other sides, it's, it's a detriment.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Uh, but I think that's kind of, you know, what I rely on util still to this day is to tell me, Hey, if you see me doing that, just out of instinct to stop.
Yeah. Uh, but that was one of the first times I really had to start to experience that was downs. 'cause it was a fish that we have a management team. Yeah. They need to [00:09:00] have freedom to do so. Messed up many times in overstepping those. Right. And kind of what we say is, you know, cutting them at the, the knees type of deal.
Uh, so definitely a learning trial by fire type of situation. Uh, and that kept growing fast. I mean, it was back to back. I don't remember what the total length of time was between Oh, Nathan and then a PT and, well, I guess Fair was the last one, but that was what, two years? Yeah. Total.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Yeah. Two. Um, yeah.
'cause we fair was in 2023, so like three years.
Speaker: Yeah. So essentially, you know, back to back acquisitions. Mm-hmm. Uh, which was a rapid expansion of team, also added different trades. But we had the drains team didn't really have it. We added downs. Now suddenly, okay. We have a drains team. We have a septic team.
Uh, we kind of did excavation, but we subbed it out. Yeah. Now there's this whole nother feature to the company, uh, the departments. A PT was electric. It's a whole nother trade to add in. It's not even ancillary. It's kind of a whole nother thing to figure out. Um, reimplementing certain [00:10:00] path through every one of those steps.
Uh, the, my leadership at that point had to change to. Managing the process, um, managing the people. Mm-hmm. Right. I think that's where, for me, again, another trial by Firepoint was starting to come into play of, I had a urge and a tendency to hate SOPs. I felt like SOPs were the vein because you want it meant to slow things down.
Right. You have to document everything. Yeah. People have to follow the specific process. And we know now that SOPs are, are life, uh, but back then spend time writing these. Nothing's actually gonna get done 'cause I'm spending more time documenting than I'm actually doing the process. Uh, through that I ended up learning, obviously that becomes my job, right, is to help standardize those processes so somebody else can implement them.
Mm-hmm. So I can continue to standardize more and then other people can continue to follow those and the process just became repetitive. Um, so that [00:11:00] was kind of a thing. Another one of the next curves that I had to go through was just kind of understanding what that looked like. And just to
Brandon Niro: give like a frame of reference.
Like we were at five locations. Yeah. At that. At that 0.4.
Speaker: Uh, four. Four. Yeah. Uh, at that point, you know, it took almost an entire day to hit every location. Yeah. If you wanted to stop in everyone, you essentially spent your day Yeah. Driving, say hi for 30 minutes and move on to the next.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, so, and I did, I think I fell victim deaths for probably.
Year. Good, good Year. Uh, felt like it was in the name of, you know, retention, right? A bunch of different acquisitions. They weren't the home office. So the thought was, you know, help them feel welcome, feel nurtured. Uh, but in that we broke a lot of process, right? A lot of things didn't get up to speed. Uh, so we came into that growth, or not really growth phase came outta that growth and acquisitions.
Phase into [00:12:00] let's stabilize, let's streamline process.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: That one was the doozy because then it was, all right, so we aren't gonna acquire, we can't just like burn things down and wait for the next acquisition and cool a new project to come up. It's like, okay, we have a thing. Yeah. And we have to really actually hone this thing in and make it work, make it efficient.
Actually make some money. You know what I
Brandon Niro: kind of think is funny that with Man, I, I. So we were having this discussion and, and like I have a, there's a lot of people, there's people that we compete with.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Niro: And they're not private equity backed. They're like these dudes, I guess, and they like acquisitions.
Same. It's like the same thing. Right? So like from 2 million or 3 million or whatever, they acquired their way up to eight to 10. But that's like the only lever that they know how to pull. And what I think is kind of funny is like, if I look back at that, like on one hand, like it sounds super wise, it sounds super [00:13:00] planned out, all that stuff.
Like it wasn't like it was cash. Well, well that and like our balance sheet literally couldn't take on more. Yeah. Like we just couldn't, like, yo, we bought a bunch of businesses really fast, like, and we're privately funded, like where are we? Where are we gonna take on the cash? And uh. So like if I could have kept acquiring at that time, I probably would've, uh, 'cause that was the mode that we were in and I think people just get stuck in this mode.
But like, I think because we couldn't, we actually built something of value, whereas like back then it was not valuable. It was four brands smashed together doing a bunch of different random shit. Yeah. That's one. Yeah. So I, I think it's kind of funny 'cause like I, I look at these other people that are sort of doing.
Doing the acquisition train, and I think acquisitions come in this like you do them to get to 10 or like five, like you do them to get to some level of scale.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Niro: Then figure out how to actually run a business [00:14:00] and like grow a business.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: And then maybe start acquiring again. But like you gotta actually figure out the middle part.
Yeah.
Speaker: But I think that's the danger side though too, is for people who don't acquire. Right. So let's say their pure plays is organic growth.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And maybe they're not even intentional about it. It just kind of happens over time. We run into these companies semi often to where they grew organically and they perpetually were their own bottleneck.
They didn't have to be forced to grow. Yes. It just happened over time and suddenly the owner is the single biggest bottleneck in the entire company and they will never grow past him because he is the perpetual bottleneck for, for everything. Right. Yeah. It's nothing can get approved unless it's by the owner.
How do you do that? 20 million, 15 million.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: 10 million. Frankly. You start to get to these things where it's, you're inhibiting your own growth. Yeah. But because you weren't forced by a shock to the system, like an acquisition where, you know, you had 30 employees outta nowhere, you weren't forced to think through that.
It just happens. And then before, you know, it's suddenly you become an acquisition target for us because [00:15:00] you're stalled out on growth.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Right? Yeah, a hundred percent. So, yeah, and I think, uh, I think there's a misconception that organic growth is expensive. Yeah. But like compared to what I, I maybe like if you do it badly Yeah, sure.
But yeah, I'm, I'm grateful that we got stopped. Not, I didn't like, you know, I wasn't wise like I would've kept going. Ambitious. Well, and like I did like two years later, like, we bought another company in 22. Yeah. Allied. And then we bought another company in 23. And then it was like, okay, you're done. Hands are full.
Yeah. Hands are full.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Those even then they were, I guess for, from my viewpoint Right. They were small enough that it, yeah. It didn't take a shock to the system. Like a Downs or an a PT did operation.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Operationally, no. Yeah. I think one of the challenges that we've consistently had, and I'm excited 'cause we're like, we're moving past it, but like when we, we [00:16:00] had like a, it, there was a, we were a double turnaround for a second.
Mm-hmm. Because, because of acquisition, because of integration. But we go by a bunch of businesses. So then the balance sheet's just fucked. Yeah. Like there's no cash and there's a lot of debt. Okay. Not real great start. Not a great position to be in. Uh, and then like not long after they started struggling, 'cause it was 2022, inflation was going crazy.
And, um, and the new construction side of the business like. Erupted. Yeah, basically. And like started dragging down the rest of it. So then suddenly you're in this like, okay, I have a balance sheet to turn around, no cash, lot of debt. Also, I have a p and l to turn around because like it's no longer making money.
So what do you do? Mm-hmm. And I feel like managing through that is like hard. So how, how did you think, I know it's hard for me, but how do you think about it?
Speaker: Uh, for me it was, it was an interesting point, right? Because. At the [00:17:00] very beginning, like way back before the acquisitions.
Brandon Niro: Yeah.
Speaker: My urge was to manage via the finances, but it didn't make sense at the time because it was, there was no finances.
Yeah. There was no process
Brandon Niro: can now, which that's like kind of fun actually. I like that. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I was thinking about that the other day. I was like. This is kind of, I think what I actually thought. This is, you know, me being vulnerable in front of, uh, 1500 people. But, um, what I actually thought was, I was like, I was made to run a, I was born to run a business this size where like I have enough that I can like actually maneuver.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Like, okay, I, we can do, this is a million dollar commitment. We can do that. Or this is a 50,000 you. That's like enough to be interesting. Yeah. Whereas like, yes, at two or $3 million, it was boring. There's nothing there.
Speaker: Well, the scary part, you know, for the moment right. Was so you get outta that, that navigating via numbers and it was tactical navigation too.
Okay. We're coming back to numbers. We have to, yeah. 'cause the balance [00:18:00] sheet up shit creek.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So someone bought a lot of business businesses, but the first time you turn back to numbers, they're not pretty. Oh yeah. It's like, oh shit. Okay. This is a.
Brandon Niro: Which I would say was about a year after. It was in like late 22 or early 23.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: So we had bought all these businesses and really it was like 18 months of just hell yeah. I mean, hell like hell, but like getting our arms around like integration, like we were running three integrations at the same time.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, and it was, 'cause I think the acquisitions too, they weren't, uh, specifically targeted.
Right. It wasn't just plumbing. Yeah. It was across the board. So we were touching. Every single department. Yes. And the issues weren't just like, Hey, holistically, it's a labor issue. There was labor, there was material, there was overhead issues across every department in every facet of the company. So like as those numbers started to become available and we started to actually yeah.
Monitor them and start to act off of them, uh, it felt very shotgun. Right. Because [00:19:00] like you're trying to tackle whatever the, the dumpster fire is the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: And every time we open something, I think, you know, to this day you say it's. Pull up anything, pull up one department, I can pull up one subset of a p and l and just be like, Hey, I'll find five issues here.
And Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Yeah.
Speaker: And you will, and I think that's just, you know, nature of the business.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Well, and you've been looking at the p and l for, like, I, I had this conversation with Patrick the other day. Mm-hmm. He was like, he's like, something doesn't feel right about this. And I was like, oh, this is exactly what happened.
This is it. Yeah. I'm, yeah. He's like, that was quick. I was like, dude, I've been looking at this p and l. For a decade, something's gonna feel off. Yeah, yeah. I know exactly where to find these problems. Yeah.
Speaker: That's like the, not to kind of bounce all over the place. Right. But that's the, the fun part I'm having right now with not only the leadership development class in our, uh, existing leadership team.
Yeah. Their development is teaching the feeling side of the p and l, right? Yeah. Because like you can see the numbers and the numbers are great and you can balance 'em against KPIs, but if you're already routinely off of them
Speaker 3: [00:20:00] Yeah.
Speaker: If you're just saying, yeah, we're off, it's really kind of hard to actually measure up what's going on there.
Yeah. But if you start to understand the trends of them and the feeling of, okay, this,
Speaker 3: yeah,
Speaker: something seems off comparative to the last six months I've been paying attention to this. Now you can start to investigate something and it is off of a feeling if you get, you know, kind of good at understanding the vibe, right?
Yeah. Uh, suddenly you're starting to get into some meat potatoes. Yeah. That was the one thing, you know, very interesting from this past month, right. Is another change in how we're doing. We're coaching now managers. They are very much involved in the PL. Mm-hmm. Talk about every month with that entire team.
Um, they get full access to it. So it's starting to get them beyond the KPIs and understanding Yes, this is the target, you're not there. Mm-hmm. So what do you need to do beyond that? There's leverage you can pull. Right. But how do you investigate that to decide what lever to pull? It is a little bit of a feelings at the beginning.
Right. It's what doesn't seem right. Okay. Let's dig into that. If everything's off by the KPI mark, you can't just kinda shotgun the top line of gross margin. Hope for [00:21:00] something to, you know, shake out. It's what just seems off. Let's dig into it, you know, we will find the issue or we'll find a issue and we can just start solving through it.
Um, that to me is fun. Right? 'cause it's, it's teaching them to get into a comfort zone that we're not used to. Mm-hmm. And then starting to play around with that. And it's. They know it so much more than even you and I do right now because they're so integral inside of their department.
Brandon Niro: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, ally, for example, an install.
I could ask her and she'll have probably 10 times better of an insight into it just 'cause she's looking at it every day. She's in a
Speaker 3: second.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think something that, um, I think something that would be interesting that we don't have locked in, but it would be fun to, it'd be fun to figure it out.
But I have, um. Uh, you know, friends in accounting or law or whatever, and they have these individual p and ls or like, I'd say more dialed in p and l. Mm-hmm. And I think we have, I think we have been trying to do that. We have been trying to like, here's [00:22:00] your p and l, here's the performance from the week, here's how you contributed.
Uh, but we're just not there yet. And I think it would be kind, I think it would be really cool to dial that in where like a departmental p and l. Yeah, but like a p and l, like a true, like here's your contribution margin. I think that's actually the right term for it. Contribution margin. Uh, here's your contribution to the business.
Mm-hmm. And, um, I don't, I don't know. I don't know how to do it, but I, I think it'd be kind of fun. We've done a good job of it on cost centers. Like, Hey, we know marketing. We know exactly what happens. Warehouse, fleet call center, like we get it, we review it weekly, but I don't think we have like sales for instance, or install for instance.
I don't think our frontline leaders have an individual p and l and they probably should. Yeah. So you're saying beyond just a gross margin portion? Yeah, I think like, like.
Impact. How [00:23:00] do you have like the maximum impact and like what is the most within your control? Okay. If they're close, like I think results should be pushed to whoever has the most access to, like, determine the results. Right? So yeah. Frontline leaders or director, uh, level talent should have like PNLs that they really understand.
They definitely see what's happening as, as a company. Yeah. But like, okay, what, what did I do? Mm-hmm. Which we, we obviously provide KPIs and all that stuff, but I just don't think it's like, here's a p and l of your performance. I think it would be kind of interesting.
Speaker: I think it would be, especially 'cause we have a team at this point that is genuinely interested in it.
They, they understand the basics of the working of a of a p and l. Right. They understand how cash flows through it. So I think that's like a ba
Brandon Niro: hire, like a business analytics hire.
Speaker: Yeah. Access would probably be the second thing. Right. Is not physical access, but access to the numbers. Get ease of the data.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Would be an [00:24:00] interest point. I mean, yeah. Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Alright, we'll, we'll workshop that. Alright, so you, you've definitely, uh, I'm just gonna sort of repeat back man. Maybe it's like the styles of leadership.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Niro: So like pretty tactical, hands-on leader to sort of a reactive. Wartime leader, like same, same with me during that time period.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Um, and I think what you've done, just an excellent job of, and I've given, I think I've given you a lot of praise on here, just not to your, you know, definitely to your face, but not on the show to your face. So now, you know. Nice. Um, but like, what, I think what you've done a really excellent job of, uh, recently is like stepping into.
Uh, probably a going from that manager true to a true leader position, which like, I think you're doing a better job of it than I am. I think you're like really taking a step back. You're really working on like the vastly important stuff. And I still am like a little, like [00:25:00] hussy probably where I like, you know, get squirreled or whatever.
Um, and I just think you're doing a great job of it. But like, some just quick examples and then we can talk about what that looks like. But, uh. Well, maybe the latest stage is like, uh, senior leader. Leader. Yeah. Because now you are leading a team of directors. Yeah. Which is, uh, different than leading a team of service managers.
And, um, you know, it's just a broader scope. Uh, but you've also added leadership development to our front leaders and our current leadership team and emerging leaders like technicians or frontline folks that will become leaders. What, what else do you think this current stage of leadership is? Sort of brought out,
Speaker: uh, well, one, it's obviously forced me to, to really like, remove the tactical sense of it.
Right. I'm, I'm trying still on a day-to-day basis, frankly, to force myself to work through them and not directly. Right. 'cause it just, I don't wanna strip them of that ability to solve the problem.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Brandon Niro: Um, [00:26:00] I think that's hard. 'cause just a year ago, um, like if I think about if we got some stuff dialed and locked in mm-hmm.
And then we shut down four locations, five locations and merged into one.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: And like that was hands-on. Yes. Like in the first month. I don't remember if you were, but I definitely was a call taker.
Speaker: Yes. And we sat in cubicles next to each other for a good minute there.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. It was a trip. Uh, 'cause it was like, and that was a, that was at $14 million that, you know, that was like a, you
Speaker: know,
Brandon Niro: we were a business
Speaker: was an interesting time.
Yeah. But yeah. That, that was a challenge, I think, for a couple points. Because of, because of the consolidation there, right? Yeah. I still, to this day, I can tell you the name of every employee here, I can tell you. Mm-hmm. Probably too much about them because it was a very, we had to focus on the culture. We had to focus on maximizing retention through this move because we knew we were gonna have [00:27:00] turnover.
Turnover, which we did. We did. Um. That made it hard. Then when starting to exit outta that, because everyone still has a nature a, a tendency to wanna come to me instead of their direct manager. Mm-hmm. Who's now supposed to be working with them.
Brandon Niro: I think in that line we also hired, like we just in the last year
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Started building a senior leadership team. Like we had a SLT. But this is a sort of a different, in my mind, it's caliber of team like. A real leader of our sales department, a real leader of our install, a real leader of our accounting, real leader of marketing, inside ops, um, hr, like really all of those in the last 12 months have been placed.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: And, uh, team feels
Speaker: great. It does. Yeah. It's been a wild change to see it. Uh, and like the, just the ability to grab stuff is kind of cool to see that.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. Uh,
Speaker: sometimes it's challenging, right? Because I'll. I'll purposely let something burn. Mm-hmm. That's hard to watch, but it's in the [00:28:00] nature of someone's going to pick it up.
'cause it's, that's their, that's their role now. So it's forcing people into that role. Yeah. Uh, but frankly, the, like, our team has done a really good job of doing that. Yeah. Uh, and identifying, okay, yeah, this is, this is mine now. Mm-hmm. Uh, those lines I think started blurry and day by day, just getting more and more clear is, okay, this is, this is my boat.
This is not my boat. Now part of that still becomes like my, I'm becoming the mentor. Mm-hmm. Side, which is I think, an interesting point for me. Uh, I have a running joke with Ally. My emotional intelligence side sometimes is his, my, my weak point. Uh, I tend to be maybe too blunt to the point sometimes. So trying to become better at that and more int tune with that because the things that I'm now having to coach and guide them through do require that substantial, right.
It's, yes, we have to guide through numbers. It's also teaching them how do you focus on retention? Yeah. How do you focus on team management, not just the numbers, because at our size now, retention is just as important. It doesn't matter if we can hit the budget or not if we don't have the [00:29:00] team for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: So trying to guide through that has been a, what I'm actively right to do is I've gotten decent at allowing people to do their thing and remove myself as a bottleneck. Now it's taking that next step of not only teaching people the, the basics of leadership, but also the EQ side. Mm-hmm. That frankly to me, I'm still learning.
So it's kind of like a, you know, two step portion to it.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Yeah. I think we're, we're definitely in, uh, it's easier to identify now that we've sort of gone through it and. Maybe are still going through it in some ways, but like the, uh, senior leadership, uh, moment. Mm-hmm. And a, you know, a lot of this year, uh, I, we've, I feel momentum I.
On, like, on that, to the point where I'm bored. And, uh, I, that's never a good thing. It's, it's literally never a good thing. [00:30:00] Uh, but, you know, rich, uh, rich Talks talked about this and he and I have spoken a lot about it, and he's even tweeted about it, like, he's very passionate about this subject. And, and it was like, Hey, if you're bored, like then you're doing it right, probably.
And I'm like.
But I, what I think the stage that I'm currently in, that I'm, you know, working on and uh, is I'm, I'm trying to, uh, move to coach, which you are too. And I, I, I think that's the right move Yeah. For where we are because we're, our, our ability to impact results is, I mean, for me, five layers down and you is, is, uh, four and like, that's just a lot.
And, um. So I think being able to coach and like train in like that next line of leaders, and I think our leadership team has shown it, like they've all, you know, stepped up, which has been awesome. Yeah, so I think coaching, I think trying to [00:31:00] really, uh, enable, which is something that I'm working on that's kind of like hard because, you know, suddenly, uh, marketing's budget is two and a half million dollars and uh, you know, 20 grand disappears really fast and you're like, oh.
But like trying to enable with within guardrails, um, and trying to have, like, I'm focused a lot more on why, which I think is coaching too. Yeah. Or like, like, hey, here's this thing, but also here's why. So we had a discussion with uh, uh, Lori the other day 'cause she wants to hire another team member. And I'm cautious because of p and l, but it's much easier to have.
Kind of a instructive and coaching conversation about it because we're open p and l. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, this, this line is [00:32:00] why I'm concerned about this decision. Uh, which I felt like one helps her grow and she came up with a better plan that like fits while still accomplishing what she's trying to do.
And, uh, two, like I, I think keeps me out of it because four or five years ago. Even a year ago, probably, I would've gone in and resolved it. Yeah. And I'm trying, so I'm trying to, you know, coach and uh, like separate.
Speaker: Yeah. I guess that to me is like the autonomy side, right? Is allowing them to, you give the guidance for it, work them through it, but at the end of the day, they have some autonomy to be able to decide how they're gonna resolve it.
Yeah. Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Um, yeah, I think at times, you know, you gave the example like really early on, um. I'm just genuinely curious, like mm-hmm. Non canned answer. Your example was, oh yeah. They grew organically in the owners of the bottleneck and all things. I feel like I can be that now. Like, I guess, what's your take?
Speaker: Uh, yes. [00:33:00] I think it depends on what it is, whether it's good or not, right? There are still things, um, for example, it's almost always money. It's, it is money related, right? Yeah. It's gonna be that, and, and in some cases it's good, like, you know. Probably should have discussions on capital allocation before you go buy 14 vehicles or, you know, a 200,000 jet truck or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, in that Right. Some of the things that get below those thresholds still, uh, tend to get stuck there. Yeah. But I think those are things that you and me tend to actively work through. Yeah. And then once we solve them, I can recognize, oh, hey, this, this should not be stuck in John.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh.
Speaker: How do we stop it from happening?
Mm-hmm. At that point it's too late for the first one, but now we solved it for going forward. Right. Yeah. I think for the longest time, like a, just a funny example of it, uh, 'cause you had really tight control over the marketing budget. Mm-hmm. Was. Uh, uniform. Right. So like every time a, a new onboarding class would come through, you're welcome, Allie.
Every time a, uh, new, uh, orientation class would come through and we know we need to get them shirts. Exactly. But like that budget had to be [00:34:00] approved
Brandon Niro: Yeah.
Speaker: By you because at one point somebody decided he's go buy. Six months worth of shirts. Yeah.
Brandon Niro: It was like $14,000. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: So now every, so I reacted exactly, and I, you know, locked down, locked it up.
But then, you know, it's like, uh, hey, you know, do we need 20 shirts for this onboarding class?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, that would get tied up, right? Yeah. So we start to work through that, figure it out, and in the end we ended up solving a better solution. We now have a contract for it.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Great. Solves the whole problem.
But I don't know that we would've actually addressed that issue if we didn't hit the bottleneck.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It's a good thing. Yeah. Painful in the moment, but I think it's actually forcing us to, in that we negotiated a really good contract with our vendor. Now we have a established thing for it, and now we're finally gonna have a uniform.
That's good. Good. Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. I think, I think, uh, I think that's on. I think, uh, what's kind of funny is everything comes in waves and, you know, you sort of recognize these patterns and, uh, one of the [00:35:00] patterns I'm recognizing. Right now is, I feel a lot so fact not or feeling not fact, but I feel a lot like, or like mid 2020.
Yeah. So like first off, look out brace. Yeah. Um. But I, I remember the actively sort of pulling myself back and like, okay, do you guys got this? Because I'm pretty sure I'm gonna, you know, go buy a bunch of businesses and, um, which I did, uh, do that. So, uh, but I'm, I, I, again, feeling, I feel like that's where I'm at again, where it's like.
Okay. Hey, that was a, that was a four years, huh? And, uh, and now like the team is starting to grasp it, and I'm starting to like separate, I'm just trying to coach. And now what I did wrong last time early on was, uh, didn't provide good enough guardrails, for sure. Yeah. Which I think o obviously still working on that, I, I am [00:36:00] very tight on cash.
Like very, like locked in on cash.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Um. So I didn't provide good enough guardrails. And I think that I tried, there's a really hard balance between delegation and abdication. Okay. And I think I got closer to abdication and delegation and like abdication is like, you guys got this? I'm gonna piss off to Florida.
Uh, which I actually did do. You did? Yeah. I can make fun of it because it's me. Yeah. Um, so abdication is just like. I think that's what a lot of owners do it like 3 million bucks is like they abdicate
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Their responsibility. But delegation is like, which I think I've gotten a lot better at. I'm just bored and maybe you give me the feedback if I got better at it, but I, we, I give scorecard, we give guidelines, we meet regularly and talk about it.
Mm-hmm. Like where do you think I can improve on delegation or like my leadership in general?
Speaker: Yeah. I think the. What you do. For example, like our [00:37:00] Monday meetings where you meet with each department and we review that. I think that's great. That's a great version of that. You are pushing the information and forcing the delegation of the action through it.
Awesome. I think where it will lack, let's say you were to just, you know, run off to Florida again, well, whoa. You know, or wherever skiing maybe, I don't know. You tell me that. I think there's still those points that we would see, right, that would fail because you are the single point for it. Those would be the ones that I would be Okay.
You know, how do we solve, like if we do have a vehicle issue mm-hmm. If we do have, um, an admin staff issue that requires a replacement or a net ad, those are all dead stops. Recruitment say dead stop to you. Yeah. Uh, so those would be things that like, hey, okay, you know, if you are gonna go off grid for. A week, two weeks, whatever it is.
Yeah. They'd break. Uh, they'd be break points. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That I think we'd have to solve so we don't stop the machine from moving.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: At Wilson, we've saved a stupid amount of money by having AI help out with our call center, and the best tool out there that's making that [00:38:00] happen is Avoca. So look, you've probably heard the buzz about a i, CSRs.
They seem to be everywhere, but not all. A i CSRs are created equal and Avoca seems to rise to the top. Every time they answer every call in the first ring, they sound just like a real person and they don't take breaks. But here's what makes Avoca really interesting in the real world, if the call's getting heated, like they're getting frustrated or annoyed.
Avoca knows it hears the tone, emotion, and hand the call to a real human so you can still save that call. And this has been huge for us here at Wilson. There's no more churn or people yelling representative into the phone and the backend is tight. It directly integrates into ServiceTitan at the gold tier level.
That means it can handle reschedules, check tech, arrival times, and lookup customer info. It even helps with capacity planning. It's basically a CSR with perfect memory. On top of all that, it consistently makes our team better. We get post Paul Analytics, auto tagging and coaching tools so that no matter who's on shift, we deliver for our customers.
If you're curious, go to avoca.ai av. [00:39:00] oc.ai, book a demo and tell 'em owned and operated. Sent you. Yeah, I think, I think like if I'm gonna put this sort of problem in words, I think that I'm currently not think I am currently holding the CFO title. Yes, the CMO title. The C title Chief people, what is it?
Chief People. Uh, and obviously like CEO title.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Because when I think about the like crux breakpoint decisions that are still coming to me mm-hmm. It's because I'm still wearing CFO, which I, I think is still the right decision for right now. I do think in the next 12 months that will have like, it's just too much.
I, and I'm not doing a good job of it. All I'm stopping is money from being spent and that's. I'm not doing a great job. Like Yeah, yeah. I'm not like building processes or anything like [00:40:00] that. I'm just being cheap.
Speaker: I mean even, you know, CFO makes like, that to me makes more sense than, you know, people side or, uh, marketing.
I
Brandon Niro: think marketing only gets complicated. 'cause the budget, everybody that's a delegation side, right? You break a $5 million budget, like, that's freaking nuts.
Speaker: Yeah. But I think there's a certain level of delegation that concur with that, that you don't. Lose visual of it, but someone else can operate on the day to day.
Right. Because like if something goes down right now, it's, there's a reliance on you to say yes or no and what you, how you wanna proceed with that. Hmm. Versus if there was a, at least a, some level of delegation of that. Like we know Jesse's wildly competent to do that. He could easily manage at a deeper level on that.
Just with tighter, like you said, guardrails. Yeah. Or that wouldn't have dead stops at you, but you still have the visibility to check in on it. Same thing with like people side, like the last thing we want is you get somebody great on the hook. Then because you're at Michigan here for the next couple weeks.
Mm-hmm. Uh, if something stops at you, you might lose a great candidate. Just 'cause it [00:41:00] needs a, an approval. Right. On that. Uh, those are things I think that we could further delegate. Mm-hmm. That you still have visibility to and you could veto if you want to, but it's not a hard line. Stop there.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. I think I had, I, yeah, that's good feedback.
I think I've pulled out of that a lot. Um. I have, but, but definitely like opex I still care a lot about.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Technicians are pretty much that machine runs.
Speaker: Yeah. I think you've kind of drilled it in my head well enough too that I would, I'm gonna speak up for myself on this one there. Yeah. I feel like I would trust myself enough to make the same decision you would.
Yeah. In like the opex side of, you know, Laurie came to me for that hire. I'd have the same, yeah, we had the same opinion. Right. So like budgets,
Brandon Niro: budget. Yeah.
Speaker 3: You
Brandon Niro: got that drill. I, I think budget
Speaker: help too. Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Yeah.
Speaker: Of just like, Hey, it is just a yes or no. It's like, do the numbers make sense or not?
Brandon Niro: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good. So your leadership style, uh, like what do you think next? Like what do you think happens next, the next [00:42:00] year? What does, how do you, how do you continue to develop
Speaker: The big one? I see, and we're already kind of going into it, is deeper into the teacher. Side of it, right? Mm-hmm.
Like we're talking about new locations, we're talking about potentially more acquisitions. As that restarts getting foggy. I mean, I am bored again. I know that's exactly why. That's, that's why where we're, so we're talking about it. Yeah. Um, we've learned very fast that the best possible chance for success is growth within our own team,
Brandon Niro: developing leaders internally.
Yeah. That's been awesome.
Speaker: Yeah. It's been like the coolest shit.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Ever. It's, it
Speaker: is been fun to, to teach with them, like to go through this stuff. Yeah. It's
Brandon Niro: fucking sweet.
Speaker: Um, and the one we're talking about, you know, this week is they actually get to get hands on with a RP and L from last month Oh nice.
And put a real life play. Yeah. To work. So it's like, interesting. This will be fun to do, but because last, last month wasn't great. It wasn't, it wasn't. So, but that's like kind of the cool thing is, right. So our active leadership team is working alongside these leaders in development [00:43:00] to put together a plan.
They now understand how p and l works and they understand how to diagnose issues. So they're, instead of working through a scenario, they're actually gonna help build out an action plan to solve mm-hmm. One of those issues. And then be the cheerleaders for change in the field to get that across the finish line.
Mm-hmm. So they get hands on experience. So to me I view it as like, what's the most important thing over the next, you know, 12 months and, and going forward, assuming you're going to an acquisition, you're going to start another location. Your zone. Exactly. I have to be prepared to place somebody there.
What makes the most sense and what I believe we all firmly believe now is the easiest and most successful way to do that is someone internally. A hundred percent. Yeah. That we get to 70, 80 miles an hour. Someone, they jump on the auto bomb with us. It's easy. Yeah.
Brandon Niro: What's, yeah. And I think it's an interesting career accelerator for them too.
Like Yeah. I think Ally's career really accelerated because she took on mm-hmm. Uh, weird shit and deals.
Speaker: Yeah. But that was just a great case in point of that was the only reason she succeeded is because she was just. On to get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: There was, she was not going to fail, was an option for her.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. [00:44:00]
Speaker: Um, but now, like I said, I always use this analogy with the group as well too, is it's, we are doing a hundred miles an hour.
Yeah. So it became substantially harder for someone who's trying to just jump in. Mm-hmm. Get caught to speed. So the entire intention of these, the class that we're teaching is get them up to speed first. So when they jump in, they can succeed. They have the tools, they know it already. They're not trying to learn.
And grow into the role at the same time.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Do you think it is easier or harder to lead a business at our current size versus like 20 or 10 or five? What's
Speaker: easier? What's more fun? I would say right, easier is definitely gonna be smaller. Yeah. 'cause it's like you, I was, we make the analogy right of trying to like a jet ski.
Just do it. Yeah. You can just go do it. Yeah. Yeah. A justee or a cruise ship. We're definitely a cruise ship. So like, it is, it's more challenging and it's more, um, there's more theory, I guess you say behind it, right? Like, we're having to really kind of think through and strategize versus when we're small, it's like, yeah, let's, let's give it a try.
[00:45:00] We'll do it tomorrow. We can do it this afternoon if we want to. Now it's like, Hey, let's. Let's get all the people that are gonna be affected by this involved. And it turns into a strategic decision. Yeah. And it's wildly expensive sometimes too, so it's okay. We're having
Brandon Niro: to really think through what it's, yeah, I think it's a good muscle.
I, I think it's good and bad. I think, like, I think the ability to execute fast is really important and like speed is really important and uh, in a lot of ways we've lost that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Um, what I think would be kind of interesting. But I'm sorry, I'll finish that thought. Um, but the, our execution is better Yes.
Than it was a couple years ago. Yes. So like, there is sort of like a, what is it? Fast, slow and slow. Smooth. Yeah. I think that's the, which I feel like, um, yeah, I, I do think what would be kind of [00:46:00] interesting. And I currently operate this way, which could be good or like, could be bad, but I, I think there's room for like this, like hitman style team mm-hmm.
Where like in a, in a organization that moves slowly and, and the reason isn't. For, for, uh, I guess the listener, like the reason to move slowly isn't necessarily 'cause we fucking love moving, moving slowly. It's usually because we have a system that works.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: And when you have something that works, you should be cautious to break it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Uh, whereas like two years ago, I would say that we did not have a system that worked, so we were much more willing to break it. We were turning things over perpetually. Every SFP we
Speaker: wrote, we just
Brandon Niro: delete, right? I mean, now we are, we have predictable revenue, predictable margin, predictable costs, predictable budget.
So that's not like, let's go to nuke it. Whereas like two years ago we would've, so, uh, I think that's just [00:47:00] a change in the business too. But, uh, I do think there's room for like, how do you still get speed in important parts? So like, if you're launching a. A new vertical or like an acquisition or whatever, if, if you brought people in too early, you would overprocess something that doesn't exist yet.
Speaker: Yes.
Brandon Niro: And I think that's a real, like danger point. So I, I don't know. I, I don't think we're at the point or I currently doing any projects that sort of need that like lethal team, but I do think there eventually should be this like. Basically like a project team. Project team, yeah. Yeah. Where they just go in, like they go fuck something up for a week and like it's, it's better when they're done.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. It, it, it felt to me like the, uh, integrations team, right? When we doing the acquisitions. Mm-hmm. Like their job was just fight the fire that was there, get it done, put it out, set it up and leave, and then someone else comes in and stabilizes everything else out. Agent of change to get it done.
Mm-hmm. I think that makes [00:48:00] sense, because otherwise, yeah, if we were to just try and immediately develop it into a process, it would've failed miserably.
Brandon Niro: Yeah,
Speaker: I agree. Don't tell me with that though. 'cause you know, I like a good
Brandon Niro: dumpster fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same. Alright, if you have any tips for, uh, I'd say really this, this is geared towards owners north of 10.
Mm-hmm. You know, like larger companies trying to figure out how to, like, what does their life look like now and later? Like what would, what would it be
Speaker: barring the budget? Don't become the bottleneck, right? Mm-hmm. That's every, everything I've ever seen just always seems to be that it's the owner. You, you look at it or you,
Brandon Niro: or, yeah.
Like, 'cause now like you are sort of the bottleneck in a lot of ways that I'm not. Mm-hmm. Which is kind of funny.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Just I guess maybe holistically avoid the bottlenecks, right? If there's something that's being caught up. Someone's angry about it. Like it's clearly you are becoming the bottleneck.
You are the problem. Yeah. For that specific issue. So figure out bottleneck. [00:49:00]
Brandon Niro: Our solution for has been. Long term education. Yes. Yeah. Like we are diving into p and ls we're, we've been open book p and l for, I think this is like our 10th month or 11th month.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: Like we're going on a year. Yeah. Of like here's the p and l.
Yeah. Or access. And I
Speaker: think that really helped. And access to the other side too, right? Like. For the longest time I was the, the bottleneck of, you know, service time was a great case. In point only I could touch capacity planning.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Well that's going to limit us when Yeah. Someone onboards and for two straight weeks after they're onboarded, they actually don't have capacity.
So they weren't getting calls. Yeah. And then our board was lower staff than it should have been. Uh, there's those little things, right, where it's, I want to keep them because, well, you could break it easily and you know, if I don't teach 'em how to do it right or they do it wrong, it's really painful to fix.
Just give the access train how to do it. Mm-hmm. And then be prepared to fix it. Someone's going to break it. That's okay. Mm-hmm. But the reality is, is every time we've done that, and you've forced me many times to be, to do that, uh, it's [00:50:00] better. Because we go through the pain. Mm-hmm. We mess it up, we fix it, we learn from it.
We write a stop, we write a stop. Uh, but then suddenly it's no longer tied to me. And, you know, that specific process is now it's easy. Yeah. It just runs without me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: I check in on it every once in a while to make sure that it's not like exploding in the background.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Uh,
Speaker: but it's no longer a bottleneck.
Yeah. And that's, I, I firmly believe that's why we've been able to grow past some of those hurdle points that we ran into. Mm-hmm. Where it's you or me, or Ally or whoever becomes a bottleneck is forcing our way. Through that.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. And making it no longer an issue. Yeah. I, um, this is reminding me a lot and it's making me feel a little bit better about how bored I'm right now.
And, uh, but you know, Tommy did this episode, um, or like talk wrote about, I don't even remember what it was, but, but he, when, when he was our current side or a little bit smaller actually, when he was a little bit smaller, so like 10 years ago or whatever. He had to go through this stage where they had to intentionally slow down.
And I remember him describing it and now [00:51:00] I'm like, okay, that's exactly how I feel. It was just like, it drove me nuts because they had to like, you know, we had to write SOPs and we had to document everything we had to, and I'm like, oh my, oh my God, that's the stage burn. But he was probably just as bored as I was am.
And you know, after that you sort of go, you know, pop off. Uh. But yeah, that like hit skateboard. Yeah. That hit for a second because I, I do think like, it, it's, it, you, we can feel the momentum. Yes. It's totally different leadership. Like we're not wartime leaders. Yes. Right now, uh, a year and a half ago we were mm-hmm.
A year ago maybe, uh, probably a year and a half. And, um, and now we're like
Speaker: tweers. Mm-hmm. The amount of time I focus on culture alone comparatively to when it was, it was wartime. Right. It was just. Fight to keep things moving. Yeah. And now it's like, okay, we really have to focus on what is the culture of the company?
What are we trying to do? Yeah. By team, by, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's why I was [00:52:00] saying it's easy versus fun. This is, this is fun. It's definitely more challenging, but it's fun. It's hard.
Brandon Niro: It's, yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I think this has been a, this was a public debate on Twitter for a while, um, of like, Hey, is it easier to get a business from one to 10 million or 10 to a hundred million?
And, uh. We've obviously done the first. Mm-hmm. We have not done the second. So far north of 10 is a lot harder. Yes, it is hard. Yes. Uh. Yeah, it is hard because it, man, it's, it's just a, it's a, it's just like real challenges, whereas like under 10, you're just getting punched in the face a lot, so, all right.
Can you stand up after getting punched in the face? To me, it's just
Speaker: math. Like there was very simple solutions to all of it. Yes. Like, oh, okay, we have access to numbers. A gross margins 40%. Cool. Let's fix it by adjusting price and negotiating vendors. Yeah. Now it's the intangibles of culture, like you can't just.
Fix a number for culture. It's, we have to change Yeah. The way we do something. Uh, hr, like [00:53:00] there's all these different legal nuances that we have to worry about now. Mm-hmm. Those aren't just flips of switches to get done. They're, yeah. They're non-tangible impacts that take time and they take something from a top down process.
Yeah. Uh. It's hard. It's hard now. It, it's fun, hard, it feels good when we like get one of those things across the finish line and see it actually play out. It feels good
Brandon Niro: when the managers are growing and yeah. Like, yeah. I, I think it's tangible, it's real. Uh, but like challenging. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see.
I, I, I'm over the next, uh, you know, couple years. I, even just the next year, I feel like our sales have gotten dialed in. Mm-hmm. And. That seems to be the bottleneck I was talking to with a friend about this yesterday. Um, and like, sales inside plumbing, HVAC and electric is kind of a joke. Like no one has a good sales process.
Mm-hmm. And you don't really need a good sales process. And most of the people that think they have a good sales process, [00:54:00] don't they have a good flip process. Like they can flip a broken furnace. That's not a good sales process. Uh, and like I would argue that we don't like, we're getting there, but we don't.
If you compare that to like bathroom models and like Premier Home Pros who was on here, like they have a good sales process. Yeah, that's good. They drove $180 million. But, um, my line that I gave my friend yesterday was just about any asshole I. Can brute force their way to $20 million in plumbing, hvac, and electric?
Yeah. Like nearly any like we did. Mm-hmm. Like, and I'm an an asshole, so I think just about anybody can do that. But I think building a sales process, uh, is the big bottleneck plus the leadership. Like how do you build a big sales process? That can run at scale and is really dialed in because the only way to scale is more marketing leads.
Like that's it. Yeah. You have to bring on more leads and you have to sell 'em. And our industry is like, whoa. Marketing leads and then yeah. Everyone's so ridiculous. [00:55:00] And uh, and then you have to be able to, as you grow, like build leaders.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Brandon Niro: So I think we're solving the build leaders. Mm-hmm. We like a year into that.
I think we're. Inside, you know, feedback. I think we're doing a good job mainly 'cause we, we have leaders that have been promoted and are doing good. Yeah. Uh, actively working on the sales process. So it'll be interesting to see even just like six months from now, like what that looks like. 'cause I think the current bottleneck is the sales process.
Yeah. But that will soon, like we are making progress.
Speaker: It's not just quantity of sales too, it's quality. Yeah. And that's something where it's again, becomes that like the challenging part. Yes. And the asshole could sell $20 million and the asshole
Brandon Niro: could go sell. Yeah. A bunch of random bullshit. But you gotta do it and you gotta do it profitably.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. Yeah. Very interesting. So the, the advice was sort of handout, distribute, give [00:56:00] access, push, just keep pushing down, push it.
I totally agree, but then guardrails Yes. Yes. Like guardrail the hell out of it and constantly communicate. Mm-hmm. Because I, I think that's where all the, all the books are like, delegate, delegate, delegate. You know, you gotta delegate, but then like, what, how do you effectively delegate? And you do that by giving someone tasks, talking to 'em often about it.
Giving them a scorecard so they know if they won or did a bad job. Yeah. Uh, yeah. There's
Speaker: one cardinal rule and one thing you don't delegate, John. Oh, what's that? You know what it is? Like
Brandon Niro: vibes. Oh,
Speaker 3: check signing.
Brandon Niro: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The amount of freaking people, I don't, don't give a checks.
Just don't, don't give, give us signature stamp. Give a stamp. I don't, I don't. You hold on to one thing forever. Signing [00:57:00] checks. I know. It's so dumb. It's so dumb. I, I, yeah, I don't, I have a lot to say about that. Don't get, if you wanna lose a million dollars and give someone a stand. Yeah. Um, this was great.
Yeah. I felt like we covered leadership from small to big where we're currently at some of the, some of the growing pains. Like this was a lot of fun. Brandon, we gotta have ya more often. I'm down.
Speaker: It sounds like fun. And I always have to plug it too, because anybody who's in the. Group. Yeah. The leadership, uh, classes that I'm teaching and it's a 52 week class with us.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm recapping them in the community. Yes. Documented. 'cause it's, it's a two part for me. Right. I need to document it so I can replicate it. Yeah. And, but everybody else gets access to it too, so it's a, yeah. It's recorded in there. I think it's just as a course or something. I don't know what it's, uh, yeah, it's a weekly, uh, thing that we do.
It's like a live thing, but it ends up recorded, so.
Brandon Niro: Yeah. Yeah. It'd be cool. That's amazing. Cool. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker: Heck yeah.
Brandon Niro: If you like what you heard, make sure you like it and [00:58:00] subscribe and check out owned and operated.com to sign up for.
📌 Disclaimer:
Some links may include UTM parameters for tracking. Episodes may feature paid sponsors, but all opinions are our own. Always do your own research before making business decisions.
.png)
