In this episode of Owned and Operated, John Wilson sits down with Tony from Wanamaker to break down one of the biggest challenges contractors are facing in 2025: leads are tougher for everyone.
John and Tony dig into why this year has been so unusual for home service businesses, from cooler summers and unpredictable weather to rising digital costs and shifting media consumption. They unpack how operators can protect market share in a down year, why consistency beats quick creative changes, and the three questions every ad should answer: Why you? Why now? How can I afford you?
Tony shares practical insights on cost-shifting budgets, leveraging the Zero Moment of Truth, and keeping brand messaging dialed in—even when the industry feels shaky. From media buying advantages in non-political years to the impact of ChatGPT, SEO, and the decline of cookies, this conversation is packed with actionable pro tips to help contractors navigate 2025 and set up strong for 2026.
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🎙️ Host:
John Wilson
🎙️ Guest:
Tony (Wanamaker)
238 Transcript
John Wilson: [00:00:00] My big trend from 2025 leads are more challenging for everybody
Tony Castellucci: when people are hurting or looking for answers. It can get too cute on the creative side as well. Stay true to what works. Answer those three questions I touched on three months ago. Why you, why now? How can I afford you?
John Wilson: A lot of these companies that are spending really big on brand.
Are losing because they aren't dialed on what you just said. The
Tony Castellucci: ones that are feeling it the least are the ones that have that branded game down Pat. Yes. People are looking for you, not a plumber. Yeah.
John Wilson: Any pro tips for the operators out there Navigating 25 Pro Tips? So
welcome back to Owned and Operated. I am your host, John Wilson. I run a $30 million home service company up near Cleveland, Ohio. And the rest of my time is spent running a podcast teaching other people how to build their home service business. Today on the show I have Tony from Wanamaker. Welcome back to the show.
Appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thanks for having us back. Yeah, well, it, it didn't do terribly, so we're like, we gotta [00:01:00] bring him back.
Tony Castellucci: I think we really, I like to introduce myself as the, the guy who was the OG of the new studio. You were. So that's on my calling card, that's how I'm known in the streets. So happy to be back.
John Wilson: If you're an HVAC tech plumber or electrician, you know, the time is money and Supply House gets it with over 280,000 products. From 500 trusted brands, they make it easy to get what you need fast. Their Trade Master program gives you exclusive perks, like better pricing, free shipping, and priority support.
Right now you can get 5% off your first order@supplyhouse.com with code SH five. Supply house, real people, real service. It, it was a, it was an awesome episode and I don't remember what number it is. I think we can link it in show notes, but the, you, you did have a nugget in there that I quote to myself almost every day.
Which one was that? Which is, I think though 1% of your market is looking for your serv, like what? Percent's in the market and everywhere. I [00:02:00] cannot tell you how many times I've quoted that. In
Tony Castellucci: the past four months. It's not the most scientific approach, but it, it rings true. I mean Oh, totally. Break down the numbers.
I mean, it's pretty, pretty spot on. So, yeah, it's a good way to think about marketing business in general. So, yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent.
John Wilson: Yeah. No, that was awesome. Well, today, uh, we're talking about 2025, state of the leads, state of media buying. Yep. Uh, kind of a funky year for most of the industry. I'm sure you have, uh, you know, folks around the country working with you, but.
What, what we've seen on the contractor side is, uh, it's August. Mm-hmm. And leads are starting to slow up a little bit. Uh, and in some places they never really got that good. Yeah. Um, you know, summer was really cool. Like in, in, uh, California, like summer never came. Uh, so, you know, a lot of the industry's really hurting for leads.
I see it in Facebook groups. I see it in our communities and Yep. Uh, so yeah, we're, we're here to talk about, here to talk about 25, 20 25. It's, it's a weird, weird year
Tony Castellucci: all around. I mean, yeah. Um, you know, I think [00:03:00] we were kind of in the forefront warning that something was gonna happen. Yeah. I mean, home service in general.
I mean, you go through the pandemic. I mean, everyone had banner years, well, we pulled up five
John Wilson: years of demand. Yep.
Tony Castellucci: Yeah. So, and companies got huge, got huge. You're riding that wave and it didn't just end with the pandemic, it kind of was a slow teeter off. Yeah. And then you've, you couple that with, you know, some things out of our control like weather that has a huge effect on, on the HVAC side.
And then also, um, just with everything going on, the digital landscape, how that's shifting. Yeah. Uh, consumption of, of media in general. And then, um, you got a little bit of a, of a perfect storm. So if you're doing the same thing you were doing five years ago and everything's pulling back and things are changing and you're not staying up with it, uh, it's a, it's a funky year.
And on the media side, it's, it's an odd year. So we were out in the beginning of the year saying, Hey, it's, it's not a political year. I mean, we're in the northeast, we're in purple states or whatever. So,
John Wilson: so that means pricing's down or like, what should that tell me? Yeah,
Tony Castellucci: yeah. I mean, just about every. Um, [00:04:00] media outlet out there that you can advertise on.
It's pretty much a fixed inventory, give or take. I mean, depending, I mean, TV definitely, so when you don't have politicians dropping millions and issue packs and political parties dropping millions, pressure goes down on inventory rates go down, cost of entry's lower. So, um, it was a huge opportunity at the beginning of the year if you're, if you didn't take advantage of it.
I'm sorry. Um, but there's still time. Um, but yeah, no, it's, it's definitely I, and just talking to people. I would say about middle of the year, we got a wave of people, of business owners reaching out to us, kind of raising their hand. Like, I need help. But there's still, maybe you could speak a little bit too, I don't know.
Yeah, yeah. But, um, there's still, people know they need help, but there's like a weird pullback. Like they don't want to change things, hoping that it's gonna go back to like 20 21, 20 22 levels magically. Um, so it's, it's been a weird dynamic, but, uh, our clients have been pretty stable. On, on the campaigns, and it's just been really just [00:05:00] cost shifting budget around, um, capitalizing on the, uh, decreased inventory, uh, demand on the TV side and, and, um, really just a continuation of what we.
We talked about three months ago, four months ago. I don't know how long it was, but Yeah. Um, you know, LSA continues to go up a little bit on the cost per click side. PPC is still being affected. Chat gpt is continuing to grow, share on the digital side. Mm-hmm. Again, we are huge proponents. We're a full service agency.
We do some digital advertising. We specialize in traditional, but, um, shifting the digital portfolio around and then complimenting it with, with scale is still kind of what we, what we preach and. When you have a challenging year, weirdly enough, um, sucks for the business owner, but we thrive when things aren't good.
Like we weren't picking up clients left and right when people were breaking records during the pandemic.
John Wilson: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Tony Castellucci: yeah. So, um, little purpose. Well, yeah. People are looking for a change. Yeah.
John Wilson: Yeah. You know, when leads aren't working out, they're trying to figure out what levers to pull.
Tony Castellucci: Exactly. That makes sense.
I mean, we talked about a little bit [00:06:00] last time, just taking it back to basics that, that ZMA study we touched on. Um, yeah.
John Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe remind us of that.
Tony Castellucci: Yeah. Zm O study. So, um, I'm gonna talk about it a little bit later with, with your crew. Um, it stands for Zero Moment of Truth. So to take a step back, so Proctor and Gamble came out with a study in 2005 and it was called the First Amendment Truth Study.
And Proctor and Gamble, huge company products galore. And it pretty much said when you come in contact with a service or a um product, you are making up your decision. In like three to seven seconds. That's your first moment of truth. You get in contact, you're making your decision on the spot. The second moment of truth is what you actually did.
You enjoy it. How was your service level? Yeah, that's going to um, you know, put you back as a repeat customer. So then in 2011, Google said, that's all great. We agree, but we believe now that funnel starts with us. Zero moment of truth. I know I need this. They're gonna research it on Google first before they even go to that zero moment of truth or first moment of truth.[00:07:00]
Um, what's mentioned in that study, which still rings true today and um, I think kind of ties back to just marketing as a whole is yeah, they say there's a stimulus that triggers that Google zero moment of truth that triggers them getting in contact with you. Yeah. And down the line. So there's two stimuluses.
There's controlled and uncontrolled. So uncontrolled is what you just talked about. You can't control mother nature. You can't control pipes breaking completely out of your control. Controlled is your marketing.
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know,
Tony Castellucci: how can we drive people into your funnel at any point in time, no matter what the weather is with an offer telling your story, things of that nature.
So, um, when things like, you know, 70 degree days every day for an HVAC company in California happen, you need to, yeah. Need to push and back to the, the quote 1% of the, of the, uh, markets in the market at any given time. So. Go back to scale, have your, your digital presence set up. So when that zero moment truth happens, you're capitalizing on it [00:08:00] and, um, and go with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: Then do it from once you get it. Um, you know, the big thing with that is, and I mean you could probably even talk about it on your side, but that.
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Tony Castellucci: Three to seven seconds. They're pretty much, they're 60 to 70% there when they're calling you.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Tony Castellucci: So you drive a, a lead in, there's 60, it's almost yours to mess up. Yep. Uh, at that point. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. So it's, it's, it's a little. We're fighting. There's a lot of people struggling out there. You're not alone. If you're listening to this and you're like, yeah, my leads are, my cost per clicks stop.
Well, I
John Wilson: mean,
Tony Castellucci: everyone
John Wilson: is, yeah. Like literally everyone. And I think that's an important message is just like literally everyone. I don't know anyone that's like, fuck yeah, this is great.
Tony Castellucci: And I heard a lesson years ago and it's still rings true. We call it the double V.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Tony Castellucci: So when things aren't good, no one's setting records This year, right?
In home service, you can take a short term dip in revenue. You don't wanna take a short term or a dip in, uh, market share 'cause that doesn't come back. Revenue will come back. So you might hit a V but you don't wanna hit a double V, you don't wanna lose market share with it. So even though it can be hard to be consistent at times, staying with that marketing approach, analyzing it, [00:10:00] um, you know, keeps your market share strong so when things bounce back, yeah, the revenue goes right up or with it.
So,
John Wilson: yeah.
Tony Castellucci: Avoid the double V.
John Wilson: What, what do you think, uh, of the people that are like thriving this year? Like what do you, we seeing any common attributes?
Tony Castellucci: Um, consistency. I mean, going back to 2025 being just a weird year in general, I mean. We had clients have some of the best weeks of their season, uh, like 4th of July week, which is usually kind of a dead zone from, that was a dead
John Wilson: zone for us.
Yeah. We got punched in the face a few times. I'd
Tony Castellucci: say three quarters of our clients. It was typical dead zone, but there was a couple that broke records. Yeah. So,
John Wilson: yeah. What'd they do different? Nothing.
Tony Castellucci: Nothing. They were cons. Just like consistency. Yeah. I mean, they were a, they're, they were one of our 52 week active clients.
Yeah. And, um. Why we preach consistency, especially on the traditional side. 'cause you never know. I mean that back to that 1%. So whatever happened in that market, I think it was like a, a midsize Midwest market, I wanna say. Yeah, they were on, they were poised to strike and uh, [00:11:00] something happened. The stimulus happened, their message was there.
And then the other thing, I think when, when people are hurting or looking for answers, they can get too cute on the creative side as well. Stay, stay true to what works. Answer those three questions I touched on three months ago. Why you, why now? How can I afford you? Mm-hmm. Answer those three things in your ads, good things will happen.
So like why you would be, why should I call Wilson? Yeah. Um, out of all the, so some features, some benefit maybe. Yep. And then why now? Can it get worse? Is there a deal to be had? And then can I afford it? You know? So financing,
John Wilson: basically. Yeah,
Tony Castellucci: financing. Is there a $99 special discount? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's a good framework.
Yeah. You answer those three questions regardless of where you're placing the ad. Um,
Speaker 3: yeah,
Tony Castellucci: you're setting yourself up Well, I mean, 99% of objections is probably price related, so diffuse it out the gate.
John Wilson: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, um, what, what I've seen, like my, my big trend from 2025, uh, first off, leads are more challenging for everybody.
Yeah. Now people are still [00:12:00] growing. Like, we're still growing, we're up 22% or something, but like it is harder. Yeah. Uh, we definitely have to work harder. There's still growth to be had, there's still leads out there. We're still adding 700 ish new customers a month. So like, that feels good. Yeah. I don't know what our replacement is.
Like, I don't know how many customers fall off or, that would be kind of interesting. I don't really know how to measure that, but yeah, we currently add 700 new files a month, so like you can, people can still do it. Mm-hmm. One of the things that I've seen with companies that are struggling the most is, I think what you just said, which I think they're doing the right things.
So like I'm, I'll talk to companies in my peer groups or whatever, and you know, these are sophisticated operations. They're 40, $50 million. Uh. Operations and historically large brand spenders. Yeah. Consistent, large brand spenders for years. Mm-hmm. But are they hitting a message that makes sense and resonates at that time?
Yep. Because a lot of these guys, what I'm noticing is the bigger the brand spend, [00:13:00] the more dialed the message has to be. Like it has to be a good message. You can't just like pour money on, on something and hope it works a hundred percent. And uh, a lot of these companies that are spending really big on brand are losing.
I think it's because they aren't dialed on, on what you just said.
Tony Castellucci: You know, we've been preaching more and more about the halo effect of traditional, I mean, again, disclaimer. Yeah. All we do really is traditional marketing for the most. That's our, that's our niche. Niches and riches. Yeah. Yeah. Especially tv.
Um, when you're, and it's not the lowest entry cost to your point. Yeah. So if you're spending a significant chunk of your ad budget on, on anything really. Yeah. Um, you better make sure it's on point. And I think when things start to slow. Your knee jerk reaction is, I gotta change messaging. Listen, uh, a TV commercial for instance, the shelf life is long.
People always want to just switch it up, you know, monthly. I have clients that still kill it, that have been running the same ad for a year. Yeah, we're like 90 days. Yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe longer.
Tony Castellucci: Definitely. Quarterly is definitely still good, but I [00:14:00] mean, we have people that go, you know, even longer than that. So, um, seasonality.
The other thing is, and I, I would warn, not warn, but that, say it, it's been moving. Landmines. Right? You had tariff scares. Yeah. So you had consumer pullback, you have weather issues that you mentioned. Yeah. So it's not one thing slowing. Mm-hmm. You name the market. So that's where scale comes into play.
That's where TV's your friend, that's where, you know, traditional media's your friend. I
John Wilson: mean, t is still the cheapest way to reach the most amount of people.
Tony Castellucci: Still the cheapest way. And it's the way it's consumed. Yep. You're sitting there in place to take action.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Tony Castellucci: You're able to really drive home all those three points.
Why you, why now? How can I afford it? And still, survey just came out again, I think it was updated this year. The credibility factor. You buy and brand yourself around a local news source. Yep. Your brand, um, credibility goes to the roof. Yeah. So again, moving landmines, so you want to be everywhere. 1% in the market's, in the market.
The other thing is, um, whenever times get tough and there's consumer pullback, you have to, [00:15:00] everybody goes down a peg. You're high spenders that usually have blank checks. Yeah. Now want a little bit more value. Now they're shopping at Walmart for the, you know mm-hmm. In a retail sense. Um, so pushing that, um, call to action and pushing the value is, is a huge.
A thing that we always like to push in the messaging, especially when there's a, a consumer pullback kind of feel.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah.
Tony Castellucci: Especially this year.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: But I feel like the tariff thing's kind of laid off a little bit. I don't think people are super scared anymore. Yeah. I think it's kind of eased off.
John Wilson: Yeah. I mean, I mean, this year, like Yeah.
I mean, you sort of said it. Pick a thing. Yeah. Right. Hey, if, is it tariff? Is it AI layoffs? Is it, yeah. Is it uh, war interest rates? Yeah. Wars,
Tony Castellucci: like Yeah. Pick a. Pick a freaking thing, throw a dart, there's something to mess up. Uh, mess up a business that happened this year, so, yeah.
Speaker 3: You know? Yeah. Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: But it makes you better, helps you zone it in.
And I always say, if you're not con, continually, I mean, it all starts with the lead.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Tony Castellucci: So if you're not continually working with your marketing team and your advertising agency and, and, and [00:16:00] analyzing what's working, what's not, and I mean. 99% of the people coming to us that are saying they're having problems getting leads to call, they're spending enough.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: It's just our favorite term is cost shift. If something's, if there's a hole in the boat, plug it and move it. Um, don't just keep, keep, uh, spending where that's stuck or spending at the same clip.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: If they're not working anymore. And there's definitely been things, especially in the digital side, again, you don't have to.
I'm not disclaimer, not poo-pooing digital tv. They work together. It works. Work together works.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: I mean
John Wilson: our branded search is up like a lot with uh Yep. Tv. I think that's the whole
Tony Castellucci: point, is it makes your digital more effective. A hundred percent. But has there been, you know, with the Chachi PT thing, I think there's been perfect example of me not poo-pooing digital, but cost shifting.
With the chat GBT thing. Nobody's mastered it yet. Yes. But we're seeing some people be really effective in maybe scaling back PPCA little bit and doubling down on SEO efforts because that seems to be content blogs, backlinks are playing. Yeah. We did a good episode last couple
John Wilson: weeks [00:17:00] ago.
Tony Castellucci: Yeah.
John Wilson: Um, and it was.
How, like if your, if your SEO was good before chat, GPT, like you're great, now you're in a great position. Like we're in, we're in a great position, which we're super excited about and like frequently asked questions. So like quality of SEO Do you have a bunch of frequently asked questions that chat GPT can just sort of like, yep.
Pull from? If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that we've been big fans of service scalers. One of the things that they just dropped that we are really excited about is a paper lead program. So what they help you do is they help you directly gain access to leads and scale up your lead partner program.
Go to service scalers.com and say we sent you.
Tony Castellucci: So that's just one example of, I'm not saying to. Scale up or scale down your budget, but you know, maybe you take a couple grand here and just double down on content for the site to help you, um, if you're not there or performing well with the ai. 'cause I mean, it's, it's coming.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: And the cookies, you know, going away is still picking up steam. New study just came out that over half the people [00:18:00] in the US are rejecting cookies when they pop up on your screen, you know, accept or not, they don't know who you are that mm-hmm. I mean, you're, you're now a ghost, so it hurts you with your attribution tracking.
It hurts. You can't retarget them.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Tony Castellucci: So all kind of goes down the funnel, but, um, LSA has still been good. I mean, it's still climbing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: Still working well for our guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: Um, the organic side's still working well, but really, uh, the ones that are feeling it the least to your point, are the ones that have that branded, branded game down pat.
Yeah. People are looking for you, not a plumber. Yeah.
John Wilson: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I feel like that sounds right.
Tony Castellucci: Yep.
John Wilson: And any, uh, any pro tips for the operators out there? Navigating 25, rolling into 26.
Tony Castellucci: Um, pro tips. So I would say just generally speaking, 'cause the people that come to me don't be afraid to make a change.
That's my biggest thing. Um, we have people that reach out, they know there's a problem, but then they get, when you build your business a certain way, it's tough when someone says, I want you to [00:19:00] take 10 grand from here and move it to here. Yeah. It gets kneejerk. Don't be afraid to make a change. Um, if you haven't done anything with scale, especially tv.
You're not missing the boat yet. There's still time in 25 where the deals are great. Mm-hmm. Um, depending on your market and weather, that might play a role. And then with 26, if you are interested in TV or traditional, or you're doing traditional or tv, the best thing you can do to protect yourself from the midterm election political is to book in, book it early and, and lock it in.
You could always move that budget around. It'll cancel it. There's no hard contracts with traditional advertising. Um. Contrary to what, you know, every media rep will tell you, but um, you can move it around. But reserving that inventory, locking in a low rate up front will benefit you big time if you wait closer to and your state decides to pop off with some random race, your SOL.
So, yeah. Yeah. Um, those are probably my, my two big
John Wilson: and dial the message. Can you just repeat that one more time? It was the. Why you, why now? Why you, why now? How can I afford you? How can I afford you three? I feel like that's probably gonna be [00:20:00] the takeaway that I quote for the next four months.
Tony Castellucci: That's that 1% of the market is in the market.
I mean, when you think about how you consume it, even if it's a digital based video, video is still king.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Tony Castellucci: And when you look at broadcast tv, old school tv, for those you don't know, the the big four networks, A, B, C, C, B, S, Fox, N, B, C, your local news affiliates, matching credibility with a platform that allows you to just kill those three points.
Mm-hmm. In a position where I'm watching TV with a laptop or tablet on my lap where I can make an, uh, I I could take action.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: That's killer. And then you pair it with a, a well strategized digital strategy and, and capture it. That zero moment of truth. Yeah. And um, you might still feel it, there's things out of our control, but you'll feel it a whole lot less.
And your competition, your market share is gonna continue to climb even though revenue might be down a little bit. And then when that revenue comes back. You're, uh, you're on top. So yeah. Foot on throat, you know the motto. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Tony Castellucci: I love it. Yep. And then we're getting to planning season too. So this is the time of year where people are starting to put their budgets [00:21:00] together.
Don't be afraid to do an audit. Look at a year. Look at a, you have a bigger sample size now. Auditing a bad year is even better than auditing a good year, in my opinion. 'cause now we see it's, it's more definitive on what's, what is. Yeah, yeah. What works, what didn't. Yeah. So I don't have my ROAS hat on, but what It all comes.
That was good. That was, I have it with me. I just went today. I have mine on my desk. Do you? Awesome. Number one takeaway from the last podcast was working. I get one of 'em hats on. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I gotta buy 'em in bulk. Yeah. That was cool.
John Wilson: This is great. Yeah, no thanks. Appreciate the deep dive on 2025. Uh, definitely a challenging year for most operators.
I know, but there's still growth to be had, there are still market share to be taken. Uh, it just takes change.
Tony Castellucci: Yep, yep. All the other metrics are there. It's just. Getting that lead funnel coming. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So
Tony Castellucci: don't be afraid to, uh, to reach out, ask for help. Audit, audit, audit, audit, especially this time of year.
John Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. If people wanna get ahold of you, how, how can they do that?
Tony Castellucci: Uh, want more-leads.com. Our phone number's on there. Um, we are a, a smaller shop, so you'll get right in touch with me if you [00:22:00] fill out a form or, or send me an email. So Sweet. Um, Tony with Wanamaker and yeah, feel free to reach out.
John Wilson: Awesome.
Tony Castellucci: Awesome. Thanks John. Do you like what you heard? Make sure you check out owned and operated.com.
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