The Marketing Stack for Home Service Businesses: From $1M to $10M
What should home service companies actually spend on marketing at $1 million, $5 million, and $10 million?
In this episode, John Wilson sits down with Ethan Wright of Service Scalers to break down the real marketing stack for HVAC, plumbing, and electrical companies at every stage of growth. They cover what changes as you scale, what stays the same, and where most owners waste money too early.
If you run an HVAC, plumbing, or electrical business and want a clearer roadmap for how to think about marketing as you grow, this episode lays it out.
In this episode, we cover:
- The best marketing priorities for home service companies from $1M to $10M
- Why lead generation matters more than branding in the early stages
- How reviews, LSA, aggregators, and speed-to-lead drive growth
- When PPC, SEO, and lifecycle marketing become more important
- Why most owners hire for marketing too early
- How pricing impacts your ability to buy leads profitably
Host: John Wilson https://x.com/WilsonCompanies
Guest: Ethan Wright linkedin.com/in/ethanwrighttx
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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC
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Today we're talking about the marketing stack from one to $10 million. The first million dollar shop is just get leads. Most of your money needs to be going to filling your job board and then hiring the next tech. You have to get reviews on your GBP. Yeah, it's so important. What I wouldn't be spending on is like buying a billboard or a radio.We have three businesses now that are in that one to five range. Mm-hmm. Our path to five, like this is it. And you also have to price, right? If you can't afford leads, there's usually a pricing issue. 5 million. It's a lot of doing the same stuff better. Yeah. At 5 million, like you could spend $500,000 a year.Yep. Like that's a lot of money. 10 million. This is where it gets really interesting. Yeah. This is where likeWelcome back to Owned and Operated. I am your host, John Wilson During the day, I am the CEO of Wilson Plumbing, heating, cooling and Electric in Ohio and Indiana. For fun. I read this podcast where I talked to my friends about the home service industry and how to build businesses inside it. Today I'm talking to my good friend Ethan Wright.He works with service scalers, and today we're talking about the marketing stack from one to $10 million and what's the difference in technology and leads and everything involved in marketing and home service company, uh, along that journey. If you want more like this, make sure you like and subscribe.When was the last time we had you on the show? Like a year ago, two years ago? Six months ago. Six. Oh my God. I think it, I think, I think it was the last time I was here for breaking five. Yeah. Now you get to say Ohio. And Indiana. I know. And, and in a couple weeks, I have one more state to add. There you go. I know.We're, we're, we're super excited. Puerto Rico. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It, it, uh, yeah. Bad Bunny is the manager there. Like I just saw the talent on the marathon show. Yeah. Alright. Uh, but no. Yeah, we're, we're excited. Um, two State is fun. I've said this a few times on this show already, but like, it was always a dream of mine to like one day run a two state operation just because it felt.Like, when I first started, it felt so far out of reach. Yeah. Like, how could I ever do that? You know? It was like eight people and like, we're in this shitty brick building and, and the idea that like one day we could do that was just so like, no way. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's fun today to be like. Yeah, we did that.That was cool. Oh, I know you, you added it in as soon as you could in Ohio and Indiana. Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. That's fine. I gotta, I'm, I'm telling my 23-year-old self that like, Hey, we, we made it. We made it. Not too bad kid. Not too bad kid. Um, just a plumber from Akron. Just a plumber. Just a kid from Akron.Um, well this is fun too, 'cause you now are, as you're doing this expansion. You know, acquisition, whatever. Yeah. You have different markets and different Yeah. Uh, sizes of branches. Yes. Or different things matter. It's really, it's really interesting to go through exactly that. Yeah. Where, uh, hey, like, yes. So we'll do around 40 million this year.And on one hand that's like a big number mm-hmm. And kind of unapproachable to probably most of our listeners and audience on the other hand. We're like, we bought a business that did a million a half dollars last year. Yep. And the marketing stack that we're running over there is what we're about to talk about.Yeah. And like we doubled that business in the first 30 days. Like literally doubled it. Yeah. Doing what we're gonna talk about here. And then we took over another one, it was three and a half million. Yeah. Which I think both of those numbers are pretty relatable to the audience. Yeah. And, uh, the playbook is a little bit more complicated for sure.So we, like, we'll talk about that, but I, I, yeah, it is kind of fun because despite the size of the business Yeah. The branches are in new markets Yep. That I don't have 65 years of brand. Yep. Like I'm new to these people. Yep. And we have to run the exact playbook that we're about to run. Uh, so I think it's a great, it, it's sort of great to be like.And I haven't like, you know, talked to Jack much about this. 'cause Jack's always like, oh yeah, from your position. Yeah. But I'm like, actually no dog. Okay man. We're together. We're all together. This a $3 million plumbing company for sure. And this is what I'm doing. Yeah. And it's probably really interesting for you from when you were the million and a half or three and a half million dollar shop, how different marketing is now.Well, you can move so fast. Yeah. Like if, if you, I I think it's, it's a little, um. I mean, once you do something once, yeah. You know, and it's like sort of ingrained, like I, to me a lot of this stuff is a bit second nature. Yeah. So, um, just 'cause it's all I've been doing Yeah. For like, uh, 10 years of my life.But, you know, this, this plumbing company, like, we walked in and it, it wasn't, it's not like a complicated playbook. Mm-hmm. You have to trust it's gonna work. Yeah. And there's probably some risk and like if it doesn't work, then I lose some money. But yeah. Uh, simple, not easy, like Yeah. Retraining people, simple people, whatever.But yeah, it's simple. Not easy. Yeah. Because like, hey, the playbook is more leads, more tech. Yep. Like that's it. And then sales training. Yep. You know, at some point. But now we were really fortunate because the plumbing company that we took over in January had an excellent sales training program. Like their technicians were already very high performing.And so coming in. Was like literally all they needed. Feed the, the machine. Yeah, feed the machine. Yeah. Yeah. And they were just like not being fed. Yeah. So it was a very easy double. Um, but our other one, they did not have really any, there was a, there was more commercial tr uh, commercial work and not as much sales training.So that one we're like, we're having to really double down on the sales training there and like helping to lead their team to, Hey, here's how you can offer more options and Yep. So it's definitely more complicated. Well, and the thing too, and we'll, we can jump into it, but like. The things that you do, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about a $1 million shop, 5 million, $10 million.Yeah. The things you do at 1 million, you don't necessarily, I mean, most of them you don't stop, it's just your foundation, right? Yeah. So like the things that you're doing today here, you know, at your biggest. Location where you have the brand awareness. Like it's not like you are not still doing the fundamentals every day.Yeah. Um, and so when you're going back into a one and a half or a three and a half million dollar shop, you, you're like, oh, I'm still, we're still running the blocking and tackling. We're just not running the flee flicker and whatever else. Yeah. And it's how fast can you install it? Yeah. Because I think that's, that was kind of an interesting part of this whole journey.So, so we, we have, uh, actually I, this is kind of funny 'cause the, the third company we're about to buy. Like three weeks is a $7 million company, so we've got a one to three to seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've got the whole, this is perfect. Um, but, but what was kind of funny was, hey, part of the more leads isn't just like, I mean a lot of it is just like LSA, you know?Yeah. But, um, it was interesting going into these organizations and uh, you know, we're talking about the marketing stack, but a big part of Marketing Stack is what's the tech stack? Yeah. And going into these organizations and we're, Hey, we have ownership. It, it is a bit like fighting with two hands behind your back if you don't have the right tech stack.So like, yes, we had some really early wins. We did double that organization in the first 30 days, but that was without the right tech stack. It was hard. Yeah. Like it was way more like manual input and we're going in there, we're like, dude, I just wish we could, you know, have our speed to lead software set up.Because without that you playing hard mode. It's a very analog Yes. So, you know, hey, every call comes in, but we have to manually respond in 10 seconds or whatever. Yep. And it's a lot more complicated. So, um, I, I think that's a big part of it too, is like, hey, if you are a one, a five, a 10, what's your tech stack?Yep. How fast can you put that tech second play? Because without that, you're really like playing the game on hard mode for no reason. I talked to a lot of home service business owners, and if you are anything like the many shops that I know, you're getting flooded with AI pitches right now. Most of 'em sound great, but then they fall apart.The second they hit the real world. The one that I've kept coming back to is Avoca. What impressed me is they actually get how contracting businesses run, and it's not just some AI answering service. Avoca is going to handle inbound calls, outbound follow-ups, texts, web leads, dispatching, and even coaching your CSRs.Inside of one system that's built for growing home service companies. And if you're on ServiceTitan, this matters. Their integrations go deep so you're not duct taping five tools together and hoping nothing breaks during your busy season. I also like that they're honest about what AI should and shouldn't do when a call needs a human, they have a 24 7 live transfer built in, no drop balls, no awkward customer experience owners using Avoca are seeing hold times, basically disappear and booking rates jump.Sometimes by more than 30%. And that is real revenue, not just a vanity metric. If you're looking for the one AI partner that actually helps you book more jobs without creating more chaos, this is worth taking a look. Book a demo at the link below. Well, you think even, well, let's, we can get into it. So the first, yeah, the first million dollar shop.Yeah. Is just get leads really. It's like, yeah. You, in marketing spend at least, yeah. Every dollar that goes out needs to come back within a relatively. Appropriate timeframe. Right? Yeah. Where this is where a lot of times I'll, you know, someone will talk to me, they're doing one to $2 million. Yeah. And I kinda ask 'em what their, their marketing spend is.They're, they're, they're, you know, they're saying we're hurting for leads. And they say, okay, what does marketing look like? Yeah. Well, we have a SEO agency and we're paying them $3,000 a month. Mm-hmm. And that's it. Yeah. And I'm like, I love S-E-O-S-E-O. Leads are the best. Like, let's do that, but let's do it when you can.Really afford to. 'cause if you have $3,000 a month to spend and it's all going to a delayed lead source, that compounds over time. Yep. Your, your job board's not gonna be full. Right. So I always talk with people like at 1 million, if you are using a relatively, uh, you know, consistent budget framework or whatever.Yeah. Most of your money needs to be going to. Filling your job board and then hiring the next tech and filling his, you know, yeah. Filling his job. So that's like the big thing. But even when you're talking about the tech stack, like one of the big things, so obviously like LSA is great and the mm-hmm.Caveat, LSA is a lot different than it used to be. So if you, you're a plumber in Dallas. You have 75 reviews and you try and turn on local service ads, it's gonna be hard. Yeah. Because there's gonna be 15 people with Yeah. A thousand plus reviews. It's gonna be really, yeah. We, we talked right before Yeah.We went on, yeah. Of like, there's a, this sort of like, and we've talked about this a lot on the show. Yeah. 'cause I, I, frankly, I'm kind of annoyed by it. Yes. Um, but. It's almost like the more rural, the easier Yes. There's no other people there. Yeah. So there was a, um, I have a friend and he was out, uh, we had like a shop tour thing.Yeah. And he, and he's based outta Chicago, but his businesses are in, uh, Nebraska. Okay. And it's hilarious. I know. He, he buys these like two, $3 million companies and. He is very literally it. Yeah. Like there's, there's one game in town and he's it And the obvious downside is it potentially caps? Sure. Like it does cap the upside.Sure. Like you can't have a hundred million dollars single branch. Yeah. But like if you have five to 10 million and your LSA leads are 20 bucks, 'cause no one else is there. Like, who gives a shit? Yeah. Do, do go do that in five locations, 10 locations. Totally. Well that's what he did. He's on four now. So I, uh, this is like.The Sam Walton approach to Walmart. So when Walmart first started, they didn't want to go compete in the big markets because they couldn't afford to. Yeah. And they, uh, he wanted to work in smaller communities and then grow into larger ones. Yeah. And so he intentionally went to the town instead of, you know, who, where's, where's the town with 500,000 people?He said, where's the town with 50,000 people and a 30 mile radi or whatever. I don't know the exact numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's the same idea where if he can stand up enough of those stores, then he has a, a pooled revenue. That is such that he can then go afford to compete in a bigger market. Yeah.Where he can pay a premium for leads. 'cause he has all the systems and he's got the revenue backing him. So that is interesting. But, um, yeah, if you're a plumber in Dallas with 75 reviews, Ellis is hard. It's, you're, I tell people don't count on it. Like turn it on, try it, don't count on it. You might get a couple leads.Yeah. But if you're in, um, you know, there's someone here at the, at the marketing workshop and they're in like a more rural part of New York, uh, the Northeast Yeah. Uh, New York and. Um, you know, we were talking the other day and they were like, yeah, we're a little bit slow. And I was like, well, what service areas do you have turned on?They're like, oh, we don't really like to, we don't wanna drive like too far. So we only have our little city turned on. It's like, well, if you're slow, just turn on the next two cities. They like tripled their leads overnight. Yeah. Yeah. Because no one else is running LSA. Well, I've, I've used the example on this show, but like, I've talked to people in different parts of Ohio and they, they've doubled Yeah.In the last year or two. Yeah. It's like, well, what'd you do? Oh, we turned on, we turned on LSA. It's like, oh my God. That's like a, you know, there, so there's still parts of like the country where this works. It just is rural. Yes. It's, it's going to be, uh, Hey, our county is spread out. It's a large county by area and it has 120,000 people in it.Yeah. Like with one, one main city that's got. You know, 45,000 and it's like, but again, like you can do millions of dollars in revenue Yeah. In that. And so that's like an example that I've given is there's a CA branch and Cila is like a large Yeah. Consolidator. Uh, and they do like 35 million in a population of 40,000 people.So you, because they do everything You can do it. Yeah. They, they own everything. They the HVAC electric. Yeah. So you can do it. Yeah. So, so that's why I said, Hey, potentially capture your upside because. I mean that's an, depending on that, not the rule. Yeah. But like that guy's doing, you know, a dollar per person basically.That's insane. Or $10 per person. That's revenue's insane. It is kind of funny. Yeah. So, but anyway, it's like do the basics. Right. So turn on Google, LSA. Yep. If you can get leads out of that, that's awesome. Yep. Um, the next thing, and this is like where a lot of agencies won't really say this 'cause it doesn't benefit an agency, but Yeah.I tell people when you're at the million dollar point. Trying to pay, you know, pay an agency to run, let's say like pay per click ads for you. Um, you're having to pay a fee plus like to run pay per click. Well, you need a decent budget to make it work. Yeah. So I usually tell people like. Hold off on that for a while.Yeah. Like you're, go get scrappy and, and run aggregators. Right. I, I agree with that. Test, test all the aggregators in your market. I mean, Thumbtack, Thumbtack, Yelp, Angie, like the paper. Yeah. No, I think this is back to the What's your technology? Yes. Because that's what I was coming back to. So we went and we bought this company in January.Yeah. And we, we, we basically turned on LSA. Yeah. And, and like, oh yeah, we doubled. You know, there's that story that I've had. But like, that was also our, our story too. Yeah. We went from a thousand dollars a month of LSA to 5,000. But the company doubled. Yeah. We went from a hundred thousand of revenue to, we did 240 in sales in February.Like it was ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and all of that was just filling the board, but just LSA Yeah. The problem was we didn't have a speed to lead technology. Yep. They were on ServiceTitan. They're using marketing pro marketing pro's, not a speed to lead technology. It's like a maybe email and potentially text.Yeah. Potentially, potentially. Like, they're very like stingy on that. And, uh, so we ha and it takes a. Kind of a minute. Yeah. To, to get the avoca like speed to lead thing set up. Yeah. So I, 'cause you have to go through the TCPA approvals and all that stuff. So it took like a month, I think, but like, but now we can turn on Thumbtack.Now we can turn on Angie. Now when modern someone puts on in their information, you're texting immediately, you know, getting a notification to call or whatever. I, so we weren't even doing aggregators without that technology. Yeah. Because in our minds it's kind of like wasted money. Yeah. Uh, I was talking to a shop, um, that's doing about one and a half million.Yeah. Uh, yesterday. Yeah. And my advice to them, because of their financial situation, they didn't have a huge budget. Yeah. Which makes sense. And I said, you should go try the aggregators. They said, okay. They don't, none of 'em work. Yeah. And I said, I. I'm sure some like it's very market dependent. I'm sure some of them are not great for your market.Yeah. But I've never known a market unless it's really rural where it's not offered that it doesn't work. So I kinda asked the process. I was like, if you, let's say it's Angie's and they sell you a lead and Yeah. Um. What's your process? Well, we, we see it come in and we get to it. Yeah. Okay. How long does that take?Well, it depends on if we're online. Yeah. So it's like, okay, well, you know, if you're not calling in the first 30 seconds or Right. Texting in the first 30 seconds. And I said, what if you do get to it quickly? Well, I call and they don't answer. It's, I usually go straight to voicemail, leave 'em a voicemail and try 'em later.Like, do you ever call 'em twice in a row? They're like, oh, no, I don't. I don't wanna annoy people. And I said, well. If you called me once, and I don't know your number, I'll never even see that it came in, but if you call me twice, I, then it comes through and I see that I had a missed call from you. I'm way more likely to pick up and I was asking you to reach out to me.Yeah. I need your help. Yeah. Um, and so it's those little things that you have to be able to do. Yes. To take advantage of it, but like. When you're at this size, aggregators can be great and just be scrappy. Like, I'm gonna be the first I'm, I'm gonna get the speed to lead platform set up. Yeah. I'm going to use my, Hey, I'm the owner of the business coming to talk to you versus, you know, I'm one of, I'm Joe Schmo sales.Exactly. And so, um, do that And that's gonna help you fill your job boards, like LSA aggregators. Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing we talk about all the time, we don't need to, to, you know. Beat a dead horse, but get reviews. You have to get reviews on your GBP. Yeah. It's so important. Like big wrap, like Yeah.They're amazing. You get, uh, automated reviews, they help you with like setting up your profile correctly, but Yep. Even if you are in a market where people have thousands of reviews, reviews around you, you can still own your, your backyard. Yeah. Even if it's only a mile or two mile radius, um, that's a big deal if it's a populated market.Yeah. And so, and those, those are great. And so you need to be Yeah. Calling, uh, after jobs, like getting the reviews again, using, I'm the owner, like I know owners that make calls at the end of every day and they, their techs have asked for reviews, but they say, Hey, my name's John Wilson. Mm-hmm. I run a local company here.Um, it means the world to us that one, we did a good job and then two that, uh, we're able to, to know it and it also really just helps our business. Yeah. And people are way more responsive to that. Um, and so like those little things that don't scale. Yeah. People are like, oh, I can't do it. 'cause it doesn't scale.You're not scaled yet. Do it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like, that's how you fast track it. Um, you know, have a basic website. You need a CRM, but like, just like it's these little things like reviews. Uh, treating people well. Servicing 'em well, yeah. And then, yeah. Is it, are they coming through LSA? Are they coming through aggregators?Yeah. You know, how are you getting 'em? But every dollar that you're spending really needs to come back to, um, to being a lead. Yeah. Like in the short term, what I wouldn't be spending on is like, um, brand strategy. So like not buying a billboard or a radio ad or anything like that. Um, because. It's good that people know your brand, but if you're not getting calls immediately, like I tell people, build your brand through reviews and through treating people well in the first one to 5 million or whatever, and then you can, you can worry about that.Um, the other thing I see a lot, um. Full-time hires too early. Yeah. Um, and usually, yeah. I don't know why I see that so much. I think just people think like, I need to do marketing, and so I need to hire someone to do marketing. Yeah. I, I, yeah. There's like companies that, um, like I'll hear people in like the three to five range.Mm-hmm. And be like, yeah, I think we need. I'm like, what are you talking Like it just, our first hire was at 13 million. Yeah. Like it's, um, and even that felt a bit early. Well, it's because I think a lot of owners are just like, I'm not a marketing person, and so this person either has a marketing degree or they've worked in marketing somewhere.The problem is at that size, what you can afford to pay someone to do marketing. Um, they're, they're usually maybe good at one thing. Yeah. I'm really great at organic social media. I'm really great at running paid ads on Google. Yeah. But if you're trying to optimize a business profile, you know, uh, do SEO on your website if you're eventually trying to do Facebook ads or, you know, general branding, like you don't really wanna spend a full-time salary on the generalist.Yeah. Um, not yet. Now I'm a big fan of in-house marketing hires As you scale. Yeah. That essentially. Agencies can partner with, and eventually as you grow, you can outgrow your agency. You can hire more things internally, but they're, they're not even really, they're not even like the direct. Marketer pushing and pulling buttons.Yeah. They're, they are strategy, accountability. They're communicating what costs. It's like budget management. What Yeah, what's our cost per lead need to be, what, what channels are working, what, what, uh, levers need to be pulled up and down. Yeah. But that's kind of, we can get into that next, but like that's 5 million is like, not even higher, that higher necessarily, but you start to think more about that.Yeah. Yeah. But like an owner, a good agency, um, is hopefully going to. Overcommunicate to you as an owner. Yeah. And, and speak in plain language that you don't have to rely on a Yeah. You know, a marketing coordinator or whatever for, for that early, so yeah. On the one sort of that, finishing up the one stage.Yeah. We have three businesses now that are in that one to five mm-hmm. Range and our path to five. Like this is it? Yeah. Like this is it? Yeah. We're buying more leads. We're installing the technology to respond to those leads fast. And we're selling 'em. Yep. And it people really love to overcomplicate it.Yeah. Uh, and it's just not that com Yeah. It's not that complicated. It's, it's simple but not easy. Yep. Like you just need leads and like that one plumbing company, the example I gave, like, we took it over in January, it's a great team. Like they just needed more leads. Uh, they did a million, like 1.48 last year or one point.Yeah. And uh, like, we'll probably do four. Yeah. This year, just with some simple, but not easy, necessarily simple, but not easy. Yeah. It's, it's expanding the lead budget significantly. Yep. Installing the right technology. Yep. Answering the phone more. Well also, and like that's actually it. And you also have to price, right?That's another Yes. That's one more thing. Yes. Like we don't have to talk about a long time. Yeah. But you, if you, we did a 30% price increase, like off the road, if you can't afford leads. Yeah. But your competitors can. There's usually a pricing issue because it is a supply and demand market. Like Google is not new to this.Like yeah, they will not make a lead so expensive that no one can make money on it. But there are people, like, you know, you've talked about it before. If my average ticket can be higher than my competitor, I can pay more per lead. No, totally. I can win more leads. We, I got in this discussion last, uh, two, well, two weeks ago we had like a shop tour thing.Yes. Yeah. Maybe 15 companies, uh, were here and this was a discussion people were really focused on. Well, like, what's your cost per lead? And it's like, who the fuck cares? Like, it doesn't, it doesn't actually matter. Yeah, right. So in, in our restoration company, cut and dry, uh, they did $150,000 last month at a massive gross margin, like 70% gross margin.It's a ridiculous business. And, uh, Sarah, she runs it and she's awesome. And, uh, like the leads are like $500. Like we've spent more than $500. What's your, what's your average ticket and our rate? What's your margins? 30%. Yeah. So like, okay, we close one in three, so we spent $1,500 per job, but our average ticket might be six grand.Yeah. And it's like, okay, would I pay 25% for that? Sure. Yeah. Like, sure. Especially with your gross margin. Like it's know your numbers and then like, know what they need to be. Yeah. Um, anyway, that, that's a whole other conversation, but like. We, there's only so much a good agency can even do in terms of cost per lead.You get in trouble, you know? Well, people, I think cost per lead's not the thing to focus on. It's not, and, and people, what's your ROI? Yes. People ask me all the time, what's my cost per lead gonna be? And I said, well, it's gonna depend a lot on a lot of things. Yeah. Like, you're a plumber, uh, I can get your cost per lead really low, and you'll only be doing leaky faucet calls.You'll never touch water heater for the rest of of your life. Well, a good example of this is Ls A versus Angie. Yes. So LSA might be like $80 to a hundred dollars a lead. Angie leads might be 15 to 30. What are you closing? What's the quality? Well, yeah, what's the return? Our book rate on Angie is 29%. Yeah.Our book rate for LSA is like 80. Yeah. So like right off the rip it takes what three Angie leads, which is $90. Yep. To equal one LSA leads and it's, and you're not, it's called the same and you're not introducing automatic competition like Right. People, when they called you through LSA, they saw your brand and your reviews, so you already have a hire it.It's a little annoying that people get so. Yep. It's like you are missing the forest to the trees. Yeah. Cost per lead matters as a part of a, an equation. As a, just like, as part of like five other data points. Yeah. It's the funnel. But we can, we could go forever on that. Yeah. Okay. So 5 million. Um, have you ever bought enterprise level software and realized that managing it really just became a full-time job?Well, that's pretty much exactly why my restoration business switched over to Field Pulse. We were tired of software that promised efficiency, but came with endless training sessions, onboarding and frustrated techs, and using it began to feel like it was a job all on its own field. Pulse was built for owner operators who don't want more dashboards.They need scheduling, invoicing, and job tracking, and they needed all to live in one place without the chaos or the learning curve. Field Pulse is simple to roll out. It's easy for your team to actually use, and it was 75% cheaper than the other Titans of software we were using right now. If you book a demo with Field Pulse, you'll get an exclusive partner offer.It's 20% off an eligible annual subscription and 50% off premium support for your first year. If your software upgrade has turned into a time suck, it might be time to make the move, book a demo with Field Pulse and see if it's a better fit. I would say it's a lot of doing the same. Stuff better. Yeah. So up your budgets on LSA.Yep. If you found a great aggregator that works and you have a system, keep upping it. Yep. Um, somewhere along this path, you can start to think about introducing pay per click more, because yes, cost per lead's gonna be a little bit higher than LSA, everything's market dependent. Um, you're gonna have to pay more for a man, for, you know, an agency to manage it.Yeah. But like what's great about Pay per click is you can really, uh, position yourself well and you can scale it. Yeah. I always tell people like, LSA is great, but everybody's LSA account looks the same. Or LSA ad essentially. Yeah. It's how, it's how many reviews do you have? You have a couple things you can toggle.Yeah. But if I am running in a market where everyone's running PPC and when I look for plumbing, you know. Plumbing Akron. Yeah. And the guy's ad says Plumber in Akron and mine says, you know, uh, plumbing, plumbing Akron. Same day service. No service fee. Yeah. No. Like who are you picking? Yeah. You're picking the one with a unique selling proposition.Yeah. We work with some people that are in heavily private equity markets. Yeah. Uh, and I'm like, guys, let's run an ad that says still family owned. Mm-hmm. Still locally owned because. Consumers are more and more aware of private equity. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I have a friend in Virginia and he was telling me, which had him on the show, but he was telling, he might have even said on the show, I, I, this is the conversation I had with him.Okay. Yeah. So like, he'll walk up, his text will walk up to the door. And like the customers will will ask, Hey, are you guys private equity at the door? Which was, he was the first was really interesting. He was the first guy. 'cause I was talking through how ads might make sense for him. I, I think that, I think that coast, 'cause Len the Plumber was one of the earlier big deals.I feel like that was 20 17, 20 18. Big freaking company. And that went pretty early. And then Horizon has been humongous over there too. So I think like the combination of those two, they're like 40 branches each. Yeah. Like I, I think they got. Yeah. PE well, people know. Yeah. And like I, I live in Dallas, huge HVAC market.A lot of private equity. Yeah. Like people, people are aware. Um, and you know, even like if you'll, you know, go look on like a, a forum somewhere, it's like, Hey, who's the best. Whatever company, it's like, hey, you know, the joke is like, well, if they walk in with an iPad, you know, run away. Like, that's kind of the joke.That's funny. Yeah. Because everyone has the same play, but yeah. What, what's your unique selling proposition in your market? Is it, do you work with a lot in a com, in a, uh, an area with a lot of chuck and in a truck, then Yeah. Then play like the professional, timely Yeah. You know, buttoned up, uh, you know, uh, approach.Are, are you in a big private equity market? Well, we're, we're still. Family owned, still locally owned. I love that because it tells people you're family owned and you still are, which implies that other people aren't like, yeah. Yeah. Those little things can really work. So, yeah. Um, PPC is great for that. You can be way more targeted on the type of customer.You just have budget. Yeah. And you have budget, and so you can go for it. Yeah. Um, real SEO strategy, like thinking through how does my local SEO, like with and maybe pushing on like a programmatic type with Yeah. With my, with my Google business profile. How's that gonna tie into how my website performs?Yeah. Um, what content am I putting on the website? And then this is also where, depending on how good you're at getting reviews, you can think about more GBP locations. Yeah. Um, you know, on the other side of town, like however far it's gonna be. Uh, because if you're able to get to a thousand reviews or 750 reviews, whatever, depending on your market.Then you can support a second one. Yeah. And can you get that to a hundred reviews really quick? Well, now you have another just like awesome review source. Yeah. That is really, it's a lot harder to do that when you're at a million because you're not running enough jobs to actually support two profiles with enough reviews.Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so that's big. And then you really get like into, um. You've grown your customer list over time. Mm-hmm. And so you're doing a lot more retargeting so people see, I actually think that comes in earlier. Well, it, it should always be a play, but it becomes more of a, um, it becomes a bigger deal because the bigger your list is now, if you've been in, if you maybe are a family owned company and you're at a million and half, you may have a customer list as big as, you know, as you do.Like, if they've been in business for 80 years. Well, so the, the company that we took over in January, they had 8,000 people on the list and like that's a humongous list. Yeah. Like I, so the, the number that I've always sort of had in mind was 6,000 people in your customer list is one full-time outbound making a hundred calls a day.Yep. Because then you call your whole customer list every 90 days and then you just restart. Yep. Because you probably won't get hold of 'em. You'll probably actually only talk to 'em once a year. Yep. But 6,000 is like, that's enough for a full-time person to call that list every single day. Yeah. And that'd be their whole job.And so even if you don't have 6,000. When your CSR is not picking up the phone. Yeah. Or dispatch or whatever. Like, so that, that was another part of our core strategy for doubling that business. It was LSA and literally 20 outbounds a day. Yep. Like we actually couldn't even, the company was so small that uh, 'cause they only had four technicians.You couldn't service it. I think we have seven now, but like Yeah. We couldn't service it. Yeah. If we did put a full-time out bounder on it, we would book eight to 10 appointments a day. 'cause that's what our full-time outbounds book. Like, I don't have room for eight to 10 employment today. Like, we're literally too small.Yeah. You need to hire him because it's too successful. It's too good of a lead channel. I talked with a plumber in South Carolina, family owned business. Yeah. Literally. He, I was in this chair calling, you know, uh, you were making a face at me over there while I was on the phone. Before we twerking, you mean?Yeah. Yeah. For recorded. Yeah. Um, but he was just like, Hey man, I know. We just, you know, I've talked to him the first time maybe two weeks ago. Yeah. He's like, I know, like. I just need your help. Like we don't know why call volume's really down. They don't really do much marketing. Yeah. And I said, who, how? How many calls are you guys making a day?And he, it just was a foreign concept. Totally. Um, and they, again, well, I was talking with Josh and he's here for the workshop. Yeah. And he, they just started, right. He's on like week three Yeah. Of like, you know, we'll, we'll have these calls and he'll be like, yeah, dude, we're just, you know, we're really slow.And I'm like, cool. All right. What? Like, how are happen? What, what are we doing? So finally after the third week he's like, fine, alright, we're gonna do it. Yeah. So I think they started yesterday. Yeah. And uh, another guy here, uh, Matt, who is local Ohio. Yeah. We, we had a call a few weeks ago and he, I was like, what's working?Well? He's like, well, we've got an, we do have an outbound and they're booking, like for every call that connects, they book, uh, two, uh, two jobs. And I was like, great. Okay. Holy shit. So, so go like, go do that. Right? So, yeah. Um, it works so well. But then he realized, you know, this is little things. He's like, man, I feel like it could be better.And then you realize we're only using one phone number. It's getting flagged as bam. Totally. And they're still booking too. So he starts rotating phone numbers. They double their pickup and double their, their booking rate. That's crazy. So it's like. Those are, if you think about what, a, it can be real, like, we don't think about what a call costs.Oh, yeah, yeah. You're paying for that salary really easily, and those leads are warm. They're, they know you. Yeah. You're not, and they're not shopping. Like Yeah. Those are worth hundreds of dollars. And well, we commission our call takers Yes. To do it, which is big. And that's, I think, a really big part of this is how do you make it a part of your culture?Yep. And, uh, so the way our compensation works in call center for, for. Someone not here is, uh, there's a low base comp. Yep. And, um, it's not minimum wage, but it's not much higher. Uh, but then they get commissioned for every inbound and commissioned for every outbound, and it's $10 per inbound booked. And I think.15 or 20 for every outbound, but they make way be, they, they must make great money comparatively for that position. They, when we change to that compensation model, their compensation doubled. Yeah. Like it was outrageous. And it's, that's an easy bill to pay for you. Oh yeah. For what? For what? They're, oh, it's incredible.And, and like what it did was culturally like I don't have to push on outbounds anymore. And every day we will make, depending on like how much, how many inbounds there are. Like it, the more inbounds, the less outbounds, right? Yeah. Because we have less time. Um, and we're, and we're busy, but. Uh, we'll do anywhere from 300, 400 to 800 on our slow days Yeah.Of outbounds a day. Yeah. Which, which is like mind blowing to, to a lot of people. Totally. So, and hey, guess what? We book 18%. Yeah. Like, that's our book rate, which is insane, crazy, insane. Right. But like, we're three years into running an outbound strategy. Uh, but yeah, with that company that we took over in January, literally like playbook one, because I think LSA like didn't work for the first day or two.Yeah. Was just like, Hey, we're dead. Where's the list? Outbound? Yeah. Hey, Ms. Johnson. I know it's been six years. Totally, totally. But you're on the, we have a water heater flush. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it was, um, big unlock. It was a hilariously easy win because like the, one of the benefits, and this is gonna sound so, so stupid maybe, but like, one of the benefits of being a smaller company is you need less jobs.Yeah. Which like is on one hand is like obvious, but on the other hand. Wilson needs 200 some jobs a day. Yeah. So like, yeah, we need a lot. You know, it takes a lot to keep this thing fed. This other branch needs 10. Yep. And if they've got 3000, 4,000 customers, like I know I can fill four or five a day. Yeah.So like I only need to buy five leads. Like, oh my God. Yeah, it and like, are you getting five organic leads from your GVP already? Do you need to buy, like, so that's what we were finding. They had 150 reviews, so like we're getting one to two organically already, so really we're only buying like two or three leads a day and it's not that big of a deal.Yeah. Yep. The only anything else on five? Yeah, so this, the only other thing I'll say is this is. Caveat, I am, we're an agency. You're still very agency heavy here because even at five, if you are bringing someone, someone in, you don't have the cash to invest into your own team. You don't, you, you might have a co A coordinator.Yeah, maybe, and maybe it's an office manager that also Yeah. You know, tracks this for you, but you're not, well, I don't think it's a good use of spend, to be honest, because I think you're five is a really important number where you have the potential to become a market leader. Mm-hmm. When you're at five.Yeah. If you reinvest properly and I think reinvesting properly at five. Is you're not yet building infrastructure, you are doubling down on leads. Yep. And if you pay someone $50,000 a year plus benefits and whatever else, like how does that add up? That could go towards leads. That could go towards leads.Yeah. And, and, and truly like, and I mean this, I. The person that's you can afford to pay at that point, let's say it's a 50 or 60, it's a very generalized, yeah. They're like, they're not gonna do want, they're gonna be younger. You want, they're usually gonna be younger, which is great. Like that can be really awesome and helpful 'cause they're scrappy and they wanna learn or whatever else, but it's just low value.They don't, what they'll end up doing is like, Hey, we posted on Facebook today. It's like, okay, that didn't really drive leads. Yep. They haven't been in a business to understand the economics of marketing yet. Yeah. Yeah. And unfortunately I have a marketing degree and it. Was not very helpful when I got into the real world, world of marketing.Um, but yeah, so I probably not even a coordinator, like a lot of times it's like sometimes if it's a husband, wife, owner duo, like I'll see someone's kid. Yeah. A kid. Or like one of the spouses is, is more locked in on it. A great office manager will That cares. Yeah. Will help track it. But like we usually are more pushing, um, with people at this size for like.Hey, we want to track this. Can we get this data from you? Can we make sure this is set up? Yeah. Um, and we will help you understand it. Well, the danger is the budget starts to get kinda real. Yes. Where at 500, at 5 million, like you could spend $500,000 a year. Yep. Like that's a lot of money. Yep. And you need to know where it's going.Yep. Um, and like start scaling. Like you're in the, you're in the stage where LSA might be 50 grand a month. Yeah. Or 40 grand a month. Like you have to know ROI on that and book rate and you need data. And, uh, and yeah, it's, it's real. Yeah. So tracking su this is, but this is like the messy middle where like tracking is really important.Keeping on this is really important, but not, you're not yet to point, but no one has the tracking or, and, and you're not yet to the point where you can hire someone full-time to do that, so. Yeah. Yeah. And it'd be a waste of money. So sorry. As the owner, this is something you're probably gonna have to be the most locked on.Yeah. Like Brandon and I ran, we were locked in on marketing, like I said, till 13 million. Yeah. Like, and because up to that point, it's like. If any dollar I put towards an internal team under $10 million is like, well, that's lead. Like I'm literally saying, yeah, what's my return on ad spend? What am I sacrificing in, in ad?And for that, the, the last thing here is this is where brand consistency, consistency starts to matter more. And so, you know, this is where we see more people like. Doing more wraps or maybe investing more in a branding Yeah. Design or whatever. You don't have to pay a ton Yeah. To get this done. Well, like especially in today's day and age, like people are, are the, the technology people have to be like a one man.Yeah. Or a smaller, I'm a branding shop. I can get you your design, your logo, your truck wrap. That's where it starts to matter more. But still, I, I'm like. The best brand you can have is a Google business profile with great reviews and people who will call you back. Yeah. Now does having a great brand with a logo and a wrap and consistency across help?Absolutely. I just don't think brand matters that much until like 20 million to, it's just, yeah. It's, it's, um. It's an undercurrent and like, and, and people will fight me on this and say, well, like a branded, you know, if you're running a paid ads campaign, a branded call is much cheaper for you. Um, yeah. To, to capture and, you know, a higher return ad spend, I say, yeah, but.That's true, but for your brand to grow, you have to run calls. Yeah. And you have to get more customers and you have to get in more homes. And so it's still this balance and it's like, I am, everybody gets all worked up. I'm overindexing towards leads. Yeah. For a, for a while. And I, I think I love branding. I think a great brand does a lot, but like, um, well the story I've told on here is we, we were talking with, uh, the lead partners, CMO or VP of Marketing or something if 1920 business.I've told this story a few times on this show, but like, it hit, it hits me every time. Uh, because like my thesis is you don't need to really invest in brand until like $20 million. Mm-hmm. And, uh, like that's theirs too. So they have 19 or 20 different brands and they start investing in brand at $20 million.So they, it's radio and TV and all that stuff at that point. Yeah. And up till that point you literally just go buy the leads. Yeah. Like it's not Well that, yeah. Any lead gen is not branded at this point. I'm really only talking about like get your, yeah. Get your logo, like your company colors and whatever.Yeah. Maybe wrap some, but like. That, like, memorable. Sure. But yeah, not, not running, I'm not running meta ads yet. Yeah. Unless you're, unless you're a very specific type of business. Yeah. I'm not buying billboards, I'm not doing radio. Those are all great. They all have a place. Yeah. But again, like when someone's water heater is leaking, they're going to search for someone or they're gonna call the guy they know they're not, they're not, oh, that's too bad.Let me go, you know, scroll Instagram a little more. Yeah. So, um, but that's kind of 5 million for me. Uh, 10 million. This is where it gets really interesting. This is where like. You have a machine running. Yeah. Um, so we're starting to, yeah. And, and, and especially on marketing where like you, to get to this point, there are some people who stumble into this point, but most people, when they get to the point, they have their tracking and attribution like dialed in.And so, you know, that's funny 'cause we didn't Sure. Well, and that's what I'm saying, it's like, it's like sometimes you find a lead source that's so good. I mean, we literally got our attribution dialed at 20. Well, and I'm saying sometimes like if you're aggressive or your lead source is so good and it's never gonna be perfect, but more people Yeah.You at least have an understanding of, if I get an Angie lead, it does not make me as much money as a, if I get a Google business profile mm-hmm. Call as if, as if I get a local service ad lead, whatever else. Yeah. So you're just tracking it better. Usually this is the point where you're on a better CRM, um, by this point, and so you can naturally do some attribution cleanly through, through those.And so like you're using Yeah. Uh, you know, if it's ServiceTitan, you maybe have marketing Pro or, or whatever the, the setup you have, but you're able to, um, you're really able to track it better. Um, the other thing I started to see here is again, it's scaling what worked and so it's like scale your LSA scale, your, your, your pay per click.Yeah. You're maybe he more heavily invested in SEO, maybe you've added a couple Google business profile locations, whatever it might be. Um, but like lifecycle marketing is like. Way more important at this point because you do at some point and not really at 10 million depending on your market, but you start to hit, um, diminishing returns on certain lead channels or like, Hey, I can't buy more leads from this lead partner for my market.I'm tapped out. And so how are you, um, marketing to your own customers for maintenance? How are you nurturing? How are you doing win backs? Things like that. Um, that becomes way more important. Maybe this is, you know, you guys at 13 million, maybe this is where you start to think of an in-house marketing manager.You have more budget. So we started pushing on lifecycle marketing is Yeah, the like basically rehashing your own cut. Yes. Like mining your own database just to define that for people. Um, so we started pushing heavily on that in like, we were low 20 millions already. Like way too late. Yes. To be honest with you, you should be doing it at every stage, but 10 is where it's like very sophisticated.When we first, when we first, when activated it. Um, I think it was. Like 2023. Here's an uncomfortable truth. Growth breaks the moment that your team can't keep up. I know that finding good people fast is really hard, especially in home services positions like hr, accounting, marketing call center. It's hard to keep up Quick Staffers helps home service companies build reliable virtual teams that actually understand the trades.Quick staffers provides vetted remote staff who are pre-trained on ServiceTitan and use best in industry SOPs. These are team members ready to integrate into your business on day one. Handling roles like customer service, lead follow up, scheduling support. And more. We're actively hiring an offshore assistant controller right now through quick staffers.I can't recommend quick staffers enough. They've helped us scale our business without a headache. Head over to quick staffers.com for more, and uh, I think we went from like 15 million to like 23. The, it was like a 50%, 40% growth year From getting better at Yeah, just contacting our own customers. Yeah, and it's the simplest.Simplest thing. They like you. And now you can launch it. Like, you know, we launched it in like week one. In that company we bought a million dollars. Well, and there's where there, there's way more, uh, affordable and approachable tools at this point too. For like offshoring helps. Yeah. Email, like speed to lead, speed to lead email technologies.There's a million email technologies you can figure out SMS like you can. You know, there's systems that like, well you can organize who you're calling when. Yes. Like all that stuff. It's so much easier. It's not a, you know, pen and paper and I gonna cross 'em off and come back to 'em. Yeah. Um, but this, at this point, it needs to not be like something we do, it's like a machine.Um, and you know, it's, yeah. It's just a part of our like Yeah. Everyday process, day process. Like, when we first launched it, it was very, like, it's kind of, it's kind of funny 'cause some days I walk in and I'm like, it the, the, what's the, what's the way to put this? Managing the business as you become like a degree or two separated from like the front line is just an odd experience.Yeah. Yeah. Because like with Outbounding, like, I remember launching Outbounding and being like being in there, you know? And like now it's just like we do 400 calls a day with or without me. Like it doesn't matter. And, you know, yeah. Yeah. It, it's kind of an odd, but it is a machine. It's just like, Hey, here's what we do, uh, every single day.How do we make that a part of it? Yeah, for sure. Um, and then this, yeah. This is the point where. Making a hire can make sense that that represents your side of the table for marketing more. So again, like. You have probably introduced more marketing channels and more lead partners at this point. Yeah.You've got agencies, you've got agencies, aggregators, like organic versus paid, you know, all these things. And so someone who is, I think eight figures is a perfect time. Yep. And so their job, they are not running things at this point. Yeah, they are. They're not clicking the. The, the paid ads, unless they budget just happen to good at it.Budget. Budget. But they're managing budget and they're managing relationships like, treat your agency and treat your partners like an employee. I totally agree. Like scorecards. Yes. Weekly checks. Let them know what does the cost need to be, what's the performance been like? Yeah. Yeah. We, when, so like for perspective into what?Uh, like not just us, but this was, I was always really surprised by this and because I think everybody. We're a marketing and sales industry. Yep. So, but like marketing first. Right. And uh, so I think a companies that are like sort of on their way up are really like, oh, we have to have our internal hire.And like, I think my point is, I, I, like, we joined nexstar back, I don't even remember when, and th three, four years ago now. And I went to a couple of like workshops and like marketing workshops and we did, um. We like just met a bunch of people and what I was consistently amazed by is like $50 million companies, 60 30, whatever.Their marketing team was like two. Two people or three people. Yeah. And they were managing agencies and I was just like, what are you talking about? Yeah. I like, I thought. When you got humongous, you brought everything in-house and, uh, this is not the case. Yeah. Like, it's like you're, man, those, that team is managing millions of dollars of spend, but it's like two or three people.Yeah. And like, maybe one of 'em is doing like community Yeah. Engagement and one of 'em managing budget. Yeah. And one of 'em sending emails or postcards or whatever. But it was a real like, oh yeah, like this whole time I thought. X. Yeah. Really you must have a, you must have your own paid specialist in house Totally.And meta specialist and whatever else. Yeah. Now some, some people do, some people do that, but, but consistently I found that that was the exception, not the rule to the rule. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and like, you know, I, I actually don't really have much of an opinion here, but, um, whether this is technically like a full-time hire or there are some people who are like fractional CMOs who can come in and.I think at 10 you should be optimizing for full-time. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you're, because you probably have close to a million dollars of budget, like Yeah, that's right. If we think about like, the scope of responsibility, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. That is a lot. That makes sense. Yeah. And so, and again, like I, I tell people all this all the time 'cause they ask me like, Hey, do you, we have someone internally, will you work with us?I'm like, absolutely. And it will make it better. Yeah, yeah. Totally. Like, because we want to know. What, like what leads are you guys internally, you know, we're not in your huddles and you're saying, Hey, we really need to do more water heaters this month. That's a big goal for us, or whatever it might be. We never hear that.Yeah. But if, if you're in-house marketing, you know, coordinator, manager, whatever, did, they can communicate that, Hey, our vision for this month, we've gotta do water heaters. Yeah. There's a rebate in the state that ends in six weeks, whatever it might be. Um, so it is like in-house marketing manager for vision accountability.Yeah. Uh, tracking agencies still, for the most part, for execution. Um, but this strategy's owned by you. And then this is also a cool tipping point for a lot of people where you're, like you were saying like when you're at 5 million, you have an opportunity to be a market leader. 10 million. Like, you're, you're in the running Oh yeah.In almost every market. Yeah. Yeah. And you now, whether you spent a ton on branding or not, you now have a brand and that actually is gonna help lower your, your customer acquisition cost. Totally. Because people know you, they remember you, they see your reviews, the customer list. And so it's kind of like.Crazy, but like the bigger, the bigger the player, a lot of time the less you end up having to pay across the board. Because I mean, the bigger you get, the bigger you get. Yep. In home service. Like, that's like the sort of the, the golden rule. Yep. Like if there's a hundred trucks on the road, like Yeah. It, you will get more calls.Absolutely. Makes sense. Yeah. This was interesting. Yeah. Uh, all right, so one to 10. So that's the difference between low seven figures, low eight figures. Um. And like this aligns. And I think a lot of the playbook, like regardless of where you are in the journey, like the stuff that we focus on at 40, we're bringing on these, you know, uh.One to $5 million branches and it's the same shit. Yeah. Like, Hey, we have to come in. We need more leads. Yeah. We need speed to lead technology. We have to outbound. Yeah. Like that. It, that's it. And it, and it, it's different flavors or different channels or different whatever. Totally. But it, maybe it's simplified, but that's still the game.Yeah. Well, I, I always thought it was gonna get so much more complicated and in a way it did. Yeah. But like when you zoom out, yeah. At the end of the day, I need more leads. I need more leads. Yeah. I have X amount of texts they need to run X amount of jobs. Yeah. And I need X amount leads, be leads based on my booking rate.It's beautiful. It's kind of beautiful. Keep it simple. Yeah. Well this is great. Awesome. Um, if, uh, if you're listening or watching, if you have any questions, comment below, we'd love to answer it. Yep. And, uh, otherwise how can people get a hold of you if they want to contact you? Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn or on x, um, or you can shoot me an email directly if you want ethan@servicescalers.com.Sweet. Happy to answer any questions. Cool. All right. Thanks for coming on.
