Is your marketing actually working — or is Google taking credit for everything? Attribution in home service marketing is broken for most operators, and in 2026, that mistake is getting more expensive.
John Wilson sits down with returning guest Tony Castelucci from Wanamaker Advertising to break down how home service businesses should really think about attribution, demand generation, and measuring ROI across channels like PPC, LSA, SEO, TV, radio, and more.
They unpack why cost per lead is often the wrong metric, how demand capture and demand creation work together, and what operators need to track if they want to scale profitably instead of just chasing cheap leads.
What we cover:
- Why last-click attribution gives too much credit to Google
- Why cost per lead is one of the most misleading metrics in marketing
- The difference between demand capture vs demand creation
- Why branded traffic and direct traffic are often your best leads
- How to use timestamps, call data, and CRM reporting to measure true marketing ROI
If you're spending more on marketing but still struggling to understand what’s truly driving booked jobs and profitable growth, this episode is for you.
Host: John Wilson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnbwilson1/
Guest: Tony Castelucci (Wanamaker)
[https://wantmore-leads.com]
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John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC
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Well, today we're dialing in attribution. Measuring brand is really complicated. Billboards, things like that, that's probably the hardest to tie down to an ROI. That makes sense. Yeah. If you're just looking at that last click on Google, yeah, you can really go wrong with giving the right the wrong credit to the wrong channel.How do you get to the thing that matters the most? Which like cost per lead does not matter the most, just about everybody we work with. They count things a little bit differently. So when you try to benchmark a cost per lead, it varies just from that alone. How do we make sure this is worth. Um,welcome back to Owned and Operated. I am your host, John Wilson, and this is a home service business podcast. During the day I run Wilson Plumbing, heating, cooling, and Electric, and we are a plumbing, heating, cooling and electric contractor in Ohio and Indiana. And, uh, for fun, I run a podcast where I talk to my friends about how to build home service companies.Today I have a returning guest, Tony Castucci, and today we're talking about tracking and attribution in your ad spend. Uh, this question has come up a lot in our Facebook groups and in our community, so this is gonna be a really good one to unpack. As you're scaling your marketing spend and trying to figure out, is this marketing driving real profitable results?Thanks for tuning in. Glad to be here, man. Yeah, it's like riding a bike. Yeah, it's like riding a bike. It's, uh, love the table off the couch, but, uh, upgrades keep happening free. Mike, you called it a casting couch. I, I'm just gonna on the internet couch. Yeah. I, I missed the RIP. Yeah. Um, and I'm, I'm not used to hearing, uh, Ohio and Indiana, so we're two states now.Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. So that's pretty relatively fresh. Uh, so this is what, March what today? Fourth. So 30 days ago on February 4th. Nice. We bought a brand out in Indiana and we are just about to buy one in, uh, uh, uh, a little bit south of us. Okay. Like in, uh, another new state. So it should be kind of fun.Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. Going all 50 soon. At least three. Yeah, at least three. It, it is fun to, um. Like, obviously we're like, you know, 60 total days into multi-location again and 30 total days into multi-state. Yeah. Uh, lot of moving parts, but it is fun to imagine ourselves as regional. We're still in the honeymoon stage where like, oh yeah, this is fun and new and exciting.And I'm sure in like 30, 60 days we'll be like, why the fuck did we do this dude, the next time I see you're gonna be all great. I'll be like, dude, what? This was the worst. But right now we're still in the honeymoon stage. That's awesome. That's awesome. Keeps, keeps you on your toes, I'm sure. I'm sure you're busy.But, uh, yeah, no, I've been following along. I'm a, I'm a user of the podcast too. I listen to it all times. Oh. So I've follow along. So a lot of great stuff. Great. Cool. Well, today we're dialing in on, uh, attribution, which is kind of fun. Yeah. Um, I, before we dive in, can we just talk a little bit about like your company and just in case other people haven't heard the other episodes?Yeah, yeah. I recommend, I think we can link to the other episodes too. They're, they're really valuable. Yeah. No, absolutely. So, uh, I'm Tony, I'm with watermaker Advertising. So we specialize. We're a little bit niche, I like to say. I kept saying last night, I'm like, Liam Mann taken, where's I have a particular set of skills?Skills? That's it. So we are really, uh, we specialize in traditional marketing. Yeah. Um, traditional channels, primarily video. Yeah. So we'll get into that. And then, you know, we do a few different verticals, but home services is kind of exploded as one of our. Primary, I mean, I'd say like 80% is probably home service companies.Um, but just bringing scale in and, um, you know, bringing back a, you know, marketing channels that people have tend to forgot about. That's having a hell of a renaissance now. Oh yeah. Um, and tying it into a new world of 2026, a lot of changes. AI attribution, this subject today comes up a lot. Yeah. And, um, yeah, it's kind of just to define attribution, like attribution is.Where did the lead come from? Like tracking the lead, where'd the lead come from And I'm investing here, you know, prove to me it's working. Get that roas. I have the hats. I forgot to bring it again. But, uh, yeah, always tying it back to return on ad spend. Yeah. And, and ROI. Um, and then optimize using that to optimize as well moving forward.Yeah. We, we had a, um, we have this series that I've been doing with Sam Preston, and it's called Clicks to Calls. Mm-hmm. And like every, uh. Uh, week, or I don't know if it actually goes out weekly or not, but every episode we unpack like a slightly different section of marketing. So we did billboards and we did, uh, truck wraps and nextdoor and PC and you know, we just like we're covering sort of all of it.Yeah. And, uh. Attribution came up a lot for truck wraps because the, the whole like concept of truck wrap is we're branding our business. Yeah. But you could do that with billboards, you could do that with tv, radio, like all, all of it's sort of like mm-hmm. Um, how are we thinking about our external to the internet branding and attribution came up a ton because measuring brand is really complicated.Yeah. And uh, Google gets most of the credit, right? Yeah. So like, hey. Our, we got this click, or we got this call from LSA or PPC or whatever. Mm-hmm. But really that's just like the last click that happened because someone googled Wilson Plumbing after seeing. The radio or TV or trucks or, you know, whatever it is.Yeah. So really trying to unpack the, um, branded search and like, you know, yep. Making sure you're actually getting real data. I talk to a lot of home service business owners and if you are anything like the many shops that I know, you're getting flooded with AI pitches right now. Most of 'em sound great, but then they fall apart.The second they hit the real world. The one that I've kept coming back to is Avoca. What impressed me is they actually get how contracting businesses run. And it's not just some AI answering service. Avoca is going to handle inbound calls, outbound follow-ups, texts, web leads, dispatching, and even coaching your CSRs inside of one system that's built for growing home service companies.And if you're on ServiceTitan, this matters. Your integrations go deep. So you're not duct taping five tools together and hoping nothing breaks during your busy season. I also like that they're honest about what AI should and shouldn't do when a call needs a human. They have a 24 7 live transfer built in, no drop balls, no awkward customer experience owners using Avoca are seeing hold times, basically disappear and booking rates.Sometimes by more than 30%, and that is real revenue, not just a vanity metric. If you're looking for the one AI partner that actually helps you book more jobs without creating more chaos, this is worth taking a look. Book a demo at the link below. Yeah, and I will say, you know, truck wraps. Billboards, things like that, how they're consumed.That's probably the hardest to, to tie down to an ROI, um, depending on the channel, there's different strategies, but, um, yeah, and I've heard a couple of those and, and I was talking to him a little bit about it. He's like, you might have a little bit different, uh, opinions with billboards and things like that, but all good content.But, but yeah, no, that's, um. Happy to talk about it. Last touch attribution's been a huge point that we've been trying to get our clients away from and when people come to us, yeah, I mean, if you're just looking at. Um, that last click on Google. Yeah. That PPC, um, you can really go wrong with, you know, giving the re the wrong credit to the wrong channel.Yeah. Um, and, you know, throwing something out that could be working really well that, you know, you might be passing up. So we, yeah. And as an extreme example Yeah. Just kind of funny, I have a friend and he was spending, I wanna say it was like 60 grand a month mm-hmm. On PPC. Okay. And like. In general, I'm a, I'm a fan of PPC.Yeah. But like, this is just like an interesting story. So he was spending 50, 60 grand a month on PPC and all of, all of the data was like, Hey, this is, you know, it's working, it's good, it's whatever. And then he started unpacking a little bit more, and it's like, actually most of this is branded. Mm-hmm. So I was already gonna get this click.I was already gonna get this customer, like someone searched Wilson and I paid to show up. Uh, so he deleted it. He just like turned off. Oh. Which I was like, bold boot. God. Let's see how this works out for him. And, uh, it did work, it did work out for him. And it was kind of funny 'cause he started unpacking.Okay. What was happening prior to them searching that branded, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, yep. Company search. And, uh, it, it, it was interesting. Yeah. But we've invested a ton of energy into this. There's kind of, there's a lot of software now you can use to sort of track, uh, like behavior on our website that. Was helping.I don't remember the name of it to be honest, but it was helping with our attribution. Yeah. And it's, it's even, um, migrated into our line of work. So, I mean, we're huge with video. Um mm-hmm. And one of the biggest channels that we recommend, and happy to dive into it further is, is broadcast tv. Yeah. What's kind of our main channel that we use on the traditional side and even our buying platform.And we, we pair back the schedules once they're reconciled with GA and. Commercial runs, web traffic goes with it. Yeah. And you could even drill down on, on where that came from, what channel, direct leads are the best leads, big believer in that. So branded traffic, organic search. Mm-hmm. Um, direct to the URL, um, different quality of lead coming through.So, yeah. Um, even driving it down and, and taking a look at that from our side of things has, has come a long way in the last few years. I mean Oh yeah. Everyone's prioritizing that. So yeah. Tying it all together. Yeah. But we are hitting a, a good point because, um. It is definitely not as cut and dry as as digital channels, so you have to dive deeper.We use instead of last touch, which I call it like blended 'cause there's like really four different philosophies that we kind of roll together to, to tell the story of, of what's working, uh, on the traditional side. Um, because to your point, you can't click the TV commercial, right? So Yeah. You kind of gotta use ga.We use CRM data. Your ga, Google Analytics. Google Analytics. Yep. Google Analytics. Um, benchmarking is huge. Not enough people do that. Do you know what your cost per lead is before you turn on this channel? Mm-hmm. Cost per sale, cost per sale, conversion rates, all of that stuff. Um, a lot of those metrics are heavily impacted by traditional marketing and.You can't, it's not always easy to identify, but yeah. You turn this channel on and all of a sudden my quality, my conversion rates skyrocketing. My margins are higher. Yeah. Average ticket's up, there's something to that. So yeah. Um, blending that all together is, um, it's kind of what we do. Cool. We're talking about this earlier.Mm-hmm. And, uh, I, I was talking about this with Ethan. We were talking about sort of the marketing stack, uh, tech stack and like what's inside that tech stack? Uh, or like, uh, lead stack. I don't even know the best way to channels, I guess. Yeah. Um, and people sort of obsessing with cost per lead probably.'cause that's the easiest to track, I guess. Like why do you think people get so like. On that one thing. Yeah, I guess it's just the most, I mean, I don't wanna offend anybody. Probably the most basic, I mean, everybody knows CPL cost per lead. I mean, that just comes up anytime I talk to anybody about marketing, whether you're veteran to somebody who's just started a business a year ago.Um. I don't know if they're just conditioned, but that's always the, the knee jerk. And, um, not all leads are the same. I mean, you can buy some really low quality leads, um, you know, different channels. I mean, lead, aggregators, social, some of those can come through and a lot of them are junk, but mm-hmm.There's a number of leads. So the cost per lead's good. So you really have to go a lot, lot deeper than, I mean, a lot of what, uh. I'm gonna talk about today with the team and I, I even heard, uh, will touch on it, is, I've always called it hunter gatherer strategies, but Yeah, demand creation versus demand capture.Totally. And the two different philosophies, even on the attribution side that goes along with it. So, you know, those tech, uh, digital channels are really, yeah. Uh, the demand capture side, that's your LSA, that's your PPC, your organic demand creation. Is more of the traditional side. And if you're structuring the campaign right, and even if the creative is structured right, you should be able to drill it down enough in that, uh, sales funnel where you'd be able to, to track it and Yeah.At, um, give credit where it's due. Yeah. All the way through. I think something that's kind of funny about cost per lead is like a, a, a main conversation point. 'cause Ethan said roughly the same thing. Yeah. He was just like, yeah, everyone like has like, they know what they want for cost per lead and I could be the dumb one.Yeah. In the room. Like, I usually probably, I probably normally am, but what's kind of funny is like I have absolutely no idea what our cost per lead is. Like I, I know that I know what our restoration one is, just 'cause I think it's funny and it's like five to $600 and I think that's kind of like a funny number.Yeah. Um, but besides that, I have absolutely no concept at all what our cost per lead is. I do know ROI by channel though, which I think is where everyone that, that's sort of what this episode is about is how do you get to the thing that. Matters the most. Yeah. Which like, cost per lead does not matter the most.Cost per lead is one of the, one of the points of data. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I, I'll even draw a comparison. Like if I'm putting together a TV schedule for a client, um, there's always some dog station that's in fourth place that's gonna sell commercials for a dollar or something like that. Yeah. Is that the same quality as Yeah, but if I'm breaking it down on a cost per unit basis, uh, it doesn't make, it makes sense in that metric, but it doesn't make sense strategically.Um. And the other thing is just about everybody we work with, they source a little bit differently. They count things a little bit differently. So when you try to benchmark a cost per lead. It varies just from that alone. Yeah. Some people are giving credit all the way up. Only direct traffic that I can pair straight one-to-one with TV or radio some, um, which is high if you're not looking at other things.So that, you know, could be a $300 cost per lead if you're only looking at that. But if you follow it through. It usually, you know, drops. But to your point, the methodologies aren't consistent. So cost per lead can really skew up and down one way or the other. Yeah. So yeah, bringing it all the way down, it's just not super relevant.Yeah. Bringing it down to, hey, I gave you a dollar, you know, give me 10 or more. Mm-hmm. Is what we try to do, you know, 10 x the marketing spend. Yeah. Well, let's unpack this a little bit more. So, uh, so I get this weekly and then monthly report. And I'm just like, curious how you, how you think about this.Maybe any input you have. But, uh, so I, we have this report, we do it internally and it's just like Google Sheets. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm sure there's software out there, but every time we've looked at it, it's like, we can just do this on Google Sheets. Mm-hmm. Um, so we, we have our, this is paid channels, but also organic channels, so at two different sheets.Um, and, uh, it's gonna be the channel itself, so LSA mm-hmm. Uh, website. Um. Then website paid versus organic. If we're running like a paid channel to the website, and that could be meta or uh, PPC. So website, LSA, maybe Angie's List, modernize, you know, sort of the the lead aggregators. Yeah. The number of leads, total spend, SAT leads.I think there's a cost per sat in there. Mm-hmm. Uh, usually I don't even look at that. 'cause what I look at is, uh, all the way on the other end, which is. Conversion rate, sale and ROI and really r oi is the last one. And that's the channel, that's the column I tend to focus on. Yep. So like the, you know, the left side of the spreadsheet is like, does this channel have volume?And the right side of the spreadsheet is, is the channel profitable with that volume? Mm-hmm. Um, and what's kind of funny is, uh, it helps us make good decisions. Yeah. Where, uh, hey, this, this, we, we have a cha, we have a lead aggregator. I don't remember the name, but the ROI is always ridiculous. Uh, like I, I don't like in the twenties normally, which is like outrageous.Yeah, yeah. But the problem is there's no volume. Yeah. So we'll get like five leads a month. Uh, but like we sell them all Yep. For like 20 grand each. So it's like an insane channel, but it has absolutely no volume at all. But I think if, and this is sort of the why do you, why we track all this data is if we just had, if we only cared about the five.Leads, then we'd probably turn it off. Yeah. Because I don't think we would look at like more of the picture. And that's why cost per lead is like, I I'm sure that that's one of the 10 things in that lineup Yeah. That we use to measure ROI. But like it's just one of 10 things. Yeah. I mean, and you know, you bring up a good point 'cause we're seeing that more and more.Um, if you're only. Focusing on the, what I call demand capture, the, the gather marketing strategies. We're seeing volume become a real, a real issue, and that that's where people tend to turn to us with on the traditional side is I need to create more volume. Totally. But then also, you know. Always taking it back to that ROI standpoint.And to your point, we have clients that have all different types of, that spreadsheet that you just described us. The most important thing on there is the timestamp. So I always, if, if they're willing to share it, I always, you know, flood, whoever's helping you with your marketing, as much info as possible.But when a client shares and then they source it the best they can, and then I get, okay, I'm gonna. Pair this up with either the TV commercial, the radio commercial Yeah. The OTT streaming, whatever else you're doing. And you're, I'm always amazed that, okay, well this was SEOI always say SE o's never driven a lean.Its life. You're there to catch it, but something pushed him there. Yeah. Unless you're really interested in plumbing. Yeah. Um, so, you know, you're, I'm always surprised when I put the commercial ran at 1224. 1226 and organically came in. Well then I'm auditing that down. I'm gonna give partial credit to. That the campaign that drove it in there, even on the PPC side, it came in as a branded, um, paid search ad, but there was a commercial or some kind of trigger, a stimulus that pushed him right down, um, into it.So all works together. And um, you know, the one thing that we see consistently, no matter what you're doing on, on the traditional side is whenever you infuse scale into it, you're putting all those digital components on steroids. Yeah. So you're cost per lead. Across the board should go down, um, with volume picking up.So as we're like, let's, let's talk about that another layer deep. Mm-hmm. So we've got the timestamping, the leads, and, and is that like form fill? Is that a phone call? Both. Both. Is there another example of a lead or a. Those are the only two I can think of. Yeah, no, just, I mean, pretty much the time the, the phone rang or the time the form fill was hit sent.Okay. Um, is, is what I mean. I mean, and someone's putting a tracking number of like per, do you have an opinion on how many different tracking numbers? So tracking numbers, I like them for print. I could take or leave them for pretty much everything else. Um, but for website, it sounds like for website, yeah.Okay. You can click the call there too. So it's, it's a little most time with mobile, but Okay. Um, like on a. On a, on a billboard or a TV commercial, you're still driving. You're still probably gonna go in 2026. I was mainly the folks on the website. Yeah, because I, I'm thinking about this like, hey, there's a stimulus to like timestamping an interaction.Yeah. Which that's almost only gonna happen on the website. Yep. Like is there another place that we can timestamp an interaction? Um, even just the, the manual call, if they're not clicking, uh, uh, even a tracked phone number. Just, okay, hey, phone rang at blank, you know, 9 56. Yeah. Just to give, it doesn't have to be exact, but, you know, um, down to the minute, because what we typically do is we attribute traditional sources within, you know, 15, 20 minutes, which is the average recall for a consumer.Yeah. Um. As partial credit. So having that timestamp and then seeing what ran right before that, um, goes a long way to see Okay, what's working, what's not. Yeah. And you know, really how does that work? I mean, the larger the business, the more phone calls happen. So like, you know Yeah. We, we might have a hundred phone calls an hour.Yep. In. I feel like that sounds right. I think we get like six to 700 phone calls a day and you gotta break it down by market. So I would pull, you know, your Cleveland market versus the campaigns that you have running in Cleveland. So it's probably not Yeah. You know, a hundred within that same hour there.Um, and it also helps kind of, you know, part of the reason why we are so, so pro video is because of how that content is consumed. Mm-hmm. If you're doing billboards radio. Or no billboards? Uh, yeah, billboards, radio, even like your truck wraps, part of the reason why it's so hard to do attribution is because you're not in a place to take action.You're most likely driving. Then you have to remember to, you know, what you saw, call it. So yeah, how long is that gap, um, is part of it. And then, you know, um. Does it stay with you? And then it's re-triggered down the road by something else. So yeah, that's why first step, we like video because usually you're in a PO position after digital, after demand capture to take action where you can see just based on yeah, the ability to take action to help that attribution.I think I like this more than, uh, there was a company. I was listening to a podcast, this was probably two years ago. Uh, and I can't pronounce their name, and I don't think anybody can, and they make a lot of jokes about that, which is kind of funny if they like really own it. Sure. Uh, there are 30, 40, 50, somewhere in that range up in Michigan, and it's like rood or something.But, um, they, they talked about this on some show and, um, I kind of disagreed, but I mean, at the, you know, they're, they're, uh, they're beating me, so, you know, who knows? Yeah. Uh, but. So maybe I could be the dumb one. But what they're doing is every single call that comes in for years, they were very religious about asking, well, where did you hear about us?Mm-hmm. And the problem that I have with that is almost everyone's gonna say Google because that's where they just found your number. Yep. And I feel like that's still sort of bad data. Again, I would love it if somebody corrects me if I'm wrong, but that does, that feels like bad data versus I, I kind of.I mean, it's an imperfect science, but I think I'm into the timestamp. 'cause I feel like that's a l it's one more data piece. And maybe if you combine the two, that's when you get, you know, better information. Yeah. I don't discourage people for asking. You don't want, I mean, people don't wanna be bombarded with questions when they're calling for a service, so you don't wanna be intrusive.But I don't have problems with people asking. But if you're going off that source says gospel, you're, you're, I mean, I've been in advertising just need more a long time. I, I don't know if I've ever said I saw you on TV or saw you. X, you know, you just, uh, find you online. Yeah. Um, I saw you above the urinal at the local baseball stadium.Yeah, that's us. Sometimes I say something like, that's how I know my fourth marketing strategy's working. Sometimes I'll say something totally random that I know they're not doing just to throw it off. Um, yeah, no, but it's, there are some things you can glean. Some people will say, you know, a specific, you know, channel or program or something, um, you know, the marketing thing or the baseball thing, so you can glean some.So I'm not discouraging from doing it, but. The timestamp is more important because no matter what they say, I'm gonna audit it against everything else you're doing and see what makes sense, what actually what actually happened. Yeah. Um, and maybe like I was, 'cause I'm trying, I'm trying to think about like how to get that right and I'm trying to think about that for our own.So if, if I get, um, you know, on a, on a Monday from eight to 9:00 AM let's say a normal amount of calls for us is like 150 calls. Mm-hmm. Like my first sort of hesitancy with counting timestamps mm-hmm. Is like. I get 150 calls. Really? Yeah. That's a lot already, I think. Sure. Uh, but maybe like the measurement is, uh, compared to other Mondays.Yeah. Uh, so maybe you like pull more data in for like, you know, what was the uplift from that stimulus? Yeah, because I'm trying to like. How do we make sure this is working? Well, that's part of it. Um, you know, the ben back to benchmarking, that's being a part of it as well. Yeah. Okay. But then you also look for things that make sense.Like if you're getting 150 calls and 30 of them are from lead eggs, well that probably has no effect from the traditional side. So I can take those 30 out, then you're diving deeper. Okay. Okay. And then, okay. You know, I'll look at paid search, but really my first. Thing I go to is direct and organic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Now I'm diving in on those, which probably isn't, you know, more than No, you're right. Half of the, yeah, no, that, that's a good call out. So, because I was imagining like the whole thing. Yep. Um, okay. And how long, how long does that usually, like, are you measuring that like, uh, the next. Probably the next day or the, the week after.Like what's a normal amount of time? I have clients that have different timescales. Typically I do it monthly. 'cause when I'm getting invoices, then I'm able to make sure that everything ran as invoiced invoices from like the TV station. All the vendor stations tell their flight Exactly. Their flight.Yeah. Schedules because everything that you're ordering on the traditional side, with the exception of billboards that you can see. Um, you kinda had to verify that it ran or Sure. You know, the mailers got dropped and everything ran accordingly. So after I verify all that, that's when I typically go back and look and, and do that matching up.Yeah. Um, okay. That makes sense. Yeah, and I mean, even other things too, like direct mail. I have clients that are like, you know what? I don't want you, I, I'm, you know, they called the tracking number on the direct mail piece, so I don't even want that. In the equation when I'm going through and comparing TV and radio.So yeah, there's a little bit of conversation that we have upfront on, okay, well what's the parameters here? What, you know, what are you considering to have an effect with? What, uh, which, which, uh, you know, we have a quote. Uh, if you want something to work, it does, and if you don't, you don't. It's not gonna work.You. This is radios. Radio's not gonna work. And then you get on, it doesn't work well, you kind of fighting uphill battle. Same with tv. If you're convinced that everything's coming straight from Google and you're not open to, yeah. Hearing the other argument to it, um, it's not gonna work no matter how f you know much, the data says it does.So, yeah. What do people's scorecards usually look like that you're working with? Like what's the, what's the metrics? What do we track? Aside from like cost per lead? Uh, cost per lead. Cost per sit, cost per sale. Uh, cost per quote. So I've, you know, everybody's a little bit different. I have some people that track everything.And again, the more data you give someone like me, the better. 'cause then I can, you know, really dig in. So this is really expand. We've really expanded. Yeah. Over the past, I'd say, uh, a year we've got, you know, it started off with like maybe six lines. Yeah. But then the cost per sit started to coming up a lot more as we added more channels.Mm-hmm. And then, uh, cost per sale, cancellation rate turned into a really big metric. For us. Okay. Uh, because we had some channels like meta's, a perfect example. Meta cancellation rates insane. Yeah. So like people will come get all excited about like, yeah, dude, I got like $20 leads from meta. And it's like amazing.Yeah. How many did you go to? Yeah, no, I, I look at meta as like. Almost like a, like an aggregator. I mean, it will move some leads through, but to your point there, they can be very low end and tire kickers. Some people can kick ass with it too. Like I do have friends, like totally kicking ass, but especially early on.Yeah, I mean if you just need leads, period, by all means. Yeah. I 'cause, because to your point, they're cheap, but, um. When you start getting to a certain point where you are adding in more efficient channels and you're starting to focus on quality and that end ROI number Yeah. That's when, you know, maybe it doesn't make as much sense as it used to or in allocation.Maybe you scale it back and still have it. There is, is part of it, but, um, yeah, but the, I mean, the one that I've been seeing more and more people are starting to track. You know, all of the basic stuff, but then, you know, estimate or quote, and then how much did it actually sell for? So let, let's, let's hit a couple of these just to help define, 'cause I think it, these, some of these are unusual for plumbing, HVAC, electric companies.Mm-hmm. I think it's very normal for. Like roofing or, or you know, baths or something. But yeah. So cost per lead, that one's easy. Cost per sit. Mm-hmm. Is like, uh, although I've heard other people say cost per demo, but like you went to the appointment. Yeah. Uh, the appointment. You showed up. They showed up.You was in interaction there. Yep. Cost per sit, cost per demo. Cost per run. I've heard it called a few different things. And the, the difference between that and cost per lead is the cancellation rate. Yeah. Like how many leads canceled between. That lead being a, a lead and then an A, a booking and then a run.Yep. So like there's kind of a lot can happen in that timeframe. Um. And then what would cost per quote, your Google Business profiles are either printing money or they're losing it, and that's where a big reputation comes in. Big reputation turns your GBP into a true lead machine without adding more work to your plate.It runs in the background with automated posting review generation. And fast responses so that your reputation compounds over time. And this is huge. If you're multi-location, they make it dead simple to manage and scale your reputation across every branch. So every location shows up and wins in the map pack.I'm actually using big reputation right now as I grow and scale my newest acquisitions. Plus you get real insight into what's actually happening. You get to spot gaps with location, health monitoring, track reviews, and sentiment. And see which zip codes you're winning and which ones you're losing. Better insights, stronger trust, more calls from an asset you already own.Go check it out at big reputation.ai/oho estimate quote Twitter. Yep. Like, so tech goes out, hey, diagnoses it at, at the, uh, at the appointment, you know, needs a new system. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that's different than cost per run. Because, uh, like you could be getting low quality leads. So if you run 10 leads, but you only quote seven, is that, is that what that's meant for?Yeah, and I wouldn't even say cost per quote, just the quote number. So, Hey, you know, these leads, they're, it helps you drill down to back to quality again. So, yeah. Hey, the leads coming directly. Yes. The quotes are higher and then the close rate's higher on top of that. So not necessarily cost per quote, but really.The quality of the quote. Okay. You know, what's, what's going through there. Okay. Just the amount and then, you know, being able to follow it back to a sale. And then sale. Yeah. And then, uh, cost per sale. Yep. And then average sale, maybe per channel, is that? Yep. Average ticket. Average sale. Um, closing rate.Closing rate by channel. Yep. Yeah. So I mean, uh. Conversion rate lead to sit and then sit to close. I mean, usually when you add in a well strategized, um, TV campaign for instance, I mean, we're seeing, you know, 20% or more increases there. Sure. So, um, you know, being able to benchmark it beforehand, here's your what we're tracking, here's how I track it, here's what my benchmarks are, whatever they may be.'cause like I said, everyone tracks 'em a little bit differently. Um, you should see a significant lift when you start adding in some more, uh, strategic channels with scale. Yeah. And then back to that direct traffic of being the best traffic. So, yeah. And we, uh, so for, for like branded channels like tv, radio for LSA, it's like obviously pretty easy, right?Mm-hmm. And I, I think that's probably why people get drawn to digital. It's like very like, direct. Yep. But so for, uh, so if I was going to throw my scorecard at our radio ads. It would be all of the same metrics. Uh, and then the leads that we're measuring are leads that come in from organic channels. Uh, could be website, could be maybe get, uh, Google business profile.Could be. Yeah. Uh, and then it within, you said 15 minutes of the flight time. Flight time being like when that ad ran. Yes. Now there, there are caveats to that. I mean, admittedly, I'm not nearly as high on radio as I was five years ago. I think radio's dying a not so slow death. Um, I. Then the other part of that, even with tv, depending on what that schedule looks like, like we don't run a lot of spots seven days a week.We run beginning half of the week, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. Your high call volume days, which also helps with that because if you're buying, you know, some random radio station, you're getting a bajillion spots a week. Yeah. And it's running seven days a week. There's no, you should see vertical spikes Monday and Tuesday if you're writing a condensed schedule.So even if they're not pairing up to the minute you're seeing those. Ancillary KPIs go right along with it where, hey, I can feel that this is moving the needle. 'cause I'm running Monday and Tuesday and my web traffic's spiking, my phone's ringing heavier. Yeah. Um, even weeks on, weeks off. Um, hey, I was on this week and my traffic skyrocketed.I was off. It went down. So yeah, all of that stuff, I mean, that's why, so you think as you add branded, like ignore radio, let's say it's, uh, TV and it would be, Hey, we're on four channels. Mm-hmm. Four stations, whatever. If in that scorecard it would be like, here's my Fox Channel or ccb. What are the other ones?CBS, uh, C-B-S-N-B-C, Fox, A, B, C. Okay. Big one. So like, so those are the four. And then each one would have its line similar to like how I describe like LSA, Angie's modernized. Is that how you would think of it? And then typically we try to attribute by flight time. So typically, again, I'm, I'm adding that in.I mean if someone says Song on tv, great. Source it the best you can, but I'm looking and I am. You know, some people, it's not a perfect science, but I'm looking at the last commercial that ran closest to it. Yeah. Is who I usually attribute the call, the crowd force to the call. So you might have an instance where a commercial ran at 7 42 on Fox and then 7 48 on CBS, and at seven 50 the call came in.I'm gonna give it to the last one. Or I even make a note that there was two within 15 minutes. Yeah, yeah. But usually you could see a trend, usually one or two stations, no matter you know what channel it is or, well, yeah. I think that's the point of like whole conversation. Yeah. Is, how do we get, if we're on four channels, how do we diagnose?And it'd be the same as like diagnosing, Hey, is Yelp working for our business or not? Like, well, let's put it through these 10 things and let's determine it. And ideally we can, sounds like you think we can do the same thing here. Yeah. Driven by timestamp. Yeah. And we could potentially do it by channel.There's gonna be some fuzziness. 'cause obviously, like you said, like they could run 10 minutes apart. There's a little bit of fuzziness, but that's where you back to that blending different methodology. So I have. My system on backend. Yeah. Pairing up, it drills out into channel and day part and how much you paid for the commercials to your ga.So I have that. Yeah. Then I'm also doing a more manual process, you know, really eyeballing and auditing. Mm-hmm. The incoming leads. Um, you know, a big part of that we haven't, I don't think touched on yet for that, for this to work the way I'm describing, you better not just be branding. Um, you better have a call to action that is inviting people to take action.If they're not doing it, then it's not gonna Yeah, yeah. You know, trigger to, to be able to be tracked. So, um, when you say brand, I say demand creation. Make sure that you're in, you know, strong messaging. Why you, why now? How can I afford you? Making them push down the funnel. So why you, why now? How can I afford you?Three most important. Uh, all right. So questions advertised. Spots be hot as fuck. Yep. We're fun. I'm Will. We're here. We're five star reviewed. It's about to be hot. Your AC is 10 years old and hey, act out. We have a problem out. We, we diagnose it same day for free and okay. You know, finance is available.Okay. Boom, boom, boom. Okay. I like that. That's a very if 'cause if you're just doing straight brand, you know Billboard Wilson tagline. The chances of me taking action aren't very high. Yeah. Based on that. Yeah. So then I'm not able to do what I've, we've been talking about. Yeah. And, and drill down. You, you know, it'd be kind of interesting.I was, I was thinking about this as I was thinking about, uh, attribution. So, uh, my parents are kind of funny 'cause they're too, uh, like, like my dad watches Fox News and like, he just like, always Fox News. And then my mom watches anything but Fox News. Uh, so like politically standard family right now in America?Yeah. I, I think so. I think so. Uh, I, I have no idea what my mom watches for news. I, I'll ask her, but. Um, my guess, I feel like data's becoming like easier and easier to access. Mm-hmm. Um, especially with, uh, like cloud code. I, I have friends like doing these projects with cloud code right now that are just ridiculous.Mm-hmm. Like you would've had to pay like $50,000, you know? Yeah. Like six months ago. Absolutely. Uh, so what I bet you could do, and as far as like something as polarizing is like, uh, we, I don't know what the left version of. Uh, Fox's, but like, you know, Fox on one side of the political spectrum, uh, N-B-C-A-A-B-C, I don't know what, whatever On the other side.Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it doesn't really matter, but like, pick one on each side. My guess is you can relatively easily find out who's in what camp, just as far as like attribute back to attribution of channel. Yeah. Because Fox feels polarizing, right. Is it? Uh, yeah, I mean, well, so Fox News and then Fox, the Fox affiliate on the broadcast side are, are two different animals.Oh, okay. So I'm talking, you know, the broadcast Fox, which is, you know, usually local newscasts. Okay. It's not, um, your local news tries to state more down the middle. It's not quite as polarizing as Okay. So maybe less, uh, those are cable networks that we stay, stay clear of. A, because the scale isn't there.And then b, he never wanna link a brand to something divisive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't wanna get involved in the, yeah. Uh, there, there was a, there's a great quote, uh, from Gus Antos at Milestone, and it was like, you know, seven or eight years ago and some bullshit. I don't even remember what it, what happened.It was, something happened and, uh, and it was like, you know, people were up in arms about it and his marketing team. Asked Guss, like, and, you know, milestone's, $150 million, plumbing company, plumbing, HVAC, electric, and, and they were like, Hey, like, I think we have to say something. I think we have to like, you know, sure.We stand and, and yeah. Gus is like. People don't give a shit what their plumbers think about whatever x political scenario is. And I'm like, yeah, dude. Like nobody gives like, just let me clean your shit. No, what's, what's the Michael Jordan quotes of Republicans buy shoes too. So you just different stayed outta it, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.That's it. Okay. So, alright, so local news stuff is different than like big news, so, so maybe you couldn't use that data. I have to believe there's some level. Of, uh, like affiliation or something you could use to pair data down. Maybe you'd only care if you're spending like $50,000, like big numbers a month.Oh, there's all kinds of, to get like tighter attribution. There's all kinds of consumer data description in emerging, I mean, on the digital side, yes, I can find out who's in market For a plumber, it's, it's honestly a little like, you know, it's a little freaky every time we get presented with, we, we were looking at one last week.And, um, like you're looking at this data, wondering how the hell this is legal. Yeah, like the level of shit that people have. Like, like you'll know their credit cards, you'll know their social, like, we'll have like rough credit numbers and like, they didn't authorize that. They didn't authorize like, yeah, it, ah, man.It's crazy. Oh, I mean, I'm, I'm, I have, you know, smart speakers in my house and I'll say something and then all of a sudden an ad's popping up in my phone. I mean, yeah, everything, there's, it's all out there, so, yeah. Um, well I have a friend that put this, uh, widget on his site. Now, like it's basically IP address tracking.Mm-hmm. So like someone will visit your site and maybe this could be a way to attribute too. Yeah. But like someone can visit your site and I don't remember the URL name, uh, for like what it is, but it, I think it's a thousand bucks a month or something. So they visit your site. Upon visiting the company gets an email.Of like who's on your site? Like literally who is it? Mm-hmm. What's their name? What's their phone number? And that's the part where I'm like, is this legal with all this TCPA shit? What's their email address? Where do they live? Like address, not like roughly, like where do they live? I'm curious. And here's their social media profiles.So, uh. It's freaking wild and they're turning it into like an outbound campaign. Like hey, you almost open cart style. Yeah. Like, Hey, you saw you were on the website, are you okay? I think people are still adjusting to kind of cookies going away. I mean, 'cause that's a lot of what you, you used to be able to track Yeah.When cookies were a thing, you know, as recent as what, three years ago or two years ago. So, um, but you know, back to just marketing 1 0 1. You can get super, super niche like that. But at the end of the day, if you have a service that is, you know, used and accepted by the majority of the market, that's where the scale part comes in.That's what we preach. Yeah. So it's a one-two punch. Again, demand capture, you can use that capture to get really creepy with the targeting like we've been talking about. But then on the other side, bringing a 10 pound hammer and slam it to the rest of the market and, uh, generate, um. Demand yourself. Yeah.You know, help, help, uh, smooth out slower seasons. Um, take some of the uncontrolled ness out of the, out of the lead flow. Yeah. As companies are scaling up and anything that gets more complicated or you think they just get like tighter on tracking. As companies scale up, like from, I mean, we always kind of, we, we try to tell people or we preach.There's really like three levels of, of marketing. They're okay. Deploy, defend, and or deploy, dominate, defend. Okay. So deploy, you're starting out, so that marketing channels we kind of touched on already. Social lead, uh, lead eggs. Yeah. Yeah. PPC I'll say you get every business, um. It varies. I hate to tie it to revenue number, but you'll plateau usually between three and five mil.And that's where you, you have to, you know, approach like a more dominate strategy where now you're going up against the big boys. So lead channels changed. Now you need scale, now you need brand, now you need, uh, credibility behind you and then defend. Now you're a regional, you know, merging Wilson. Yeah.You're, you're almost competing with like the Angie herself. Yeah. So there's different mindsets. So as you go through that growth. That's where the lead channel changes. And then every time you add in another channel, the attribution gets a little bit more complex and you have to dive in. And a lot of what I've been talking about with, you know, even pairing up commercial times versus inbound, uh, leads, it can be time consuming.So it's it's a lot. Yeah. If you're trying to do it yourself. Yeah. So yes, it does get more complex as you grow. Um. But kind of a unnecessary evil. Mm-hmm. Uh, because you need to keep up and to keep the growth growing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. On demand creation. Mm-hmm. Outside of like, I think TV's a good one. Mm-hmm.Uh, so like, we'll, we'll just define it really quick. So, demand, uh, capture is local service ads. Is Angie's, uh, like someone is looking for this service. And I think you gave me the 1% of the market is I still quote that almost 1%. I don't give you enough credit, so I'm giving you credit right now. I don't think I came up with it, but, uh, 1% of the market's in the market never given any given time.Yeah. Um, million household market, you know, and 10,000 people toilet roofer. Yeah. Or a plumber. Yeah. You know, maybe only 2000 are actively looking for you to be in that demand capture. Is there, you know, 8,000 out there that have a leaky sink that could be swayed. Um, use ACS bin kind of shit in the bed.Yeah. Um, that's the part that people miss when you're So lead captures bottom funnel. Yeah. I don't care how they got there. Yeah. They're looking for your service. You gotta be there to capture 'em. Yeah. Creation is people that are on the fence or not quite ready to buy that you're pushing down to the farm.Yeah, you're pulling them into market. Exactly. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of different ways to do it. Uh, like. TV's, uh, at one. So like on, on like sort of different spec, maybe billboard's, like the farthest over spectrum or truck wrap, like it could potentially do something, but like it's pretty much pure brand.Yeah. Yeah. It's like very passive and like all the way over to canvassing I feel like is still inside that category of like someone was not in the market. Yeah. And you pulled them into market to think about your. Roofing solution. Yep, yep. No, and then there's obviously TV rate and everything else sort of in the, in the middle there.Yep. And, um, you know, I'll even kind of go a little bit off topic, but what we've been seeing really be successful for the demand creation side, especially on TV and, and streaming TV is. And it's become more important now, I think because there's some pullback with the economy people don't wanna spend mm-hmm.Is taking a message from the big boys. Big pharma mastered this symptom-based marketing. I don't wanna call you 'cause I need my front yard dug up and I wanna spend 15 grand on a sewer repair. Yeah. But hey, my drains are slow. Yeah. Free diagnostic or $50 diagnostic. Be the same day now I'll call you. So, um, being really, I mean, I can't stress the importance of the creative enough as it pertains to.Uh, attribution. Yeah. And, and ROI, so Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. Um, yeah, big Pharma did that. I mean, you ever seen a HIMSS commercial? Viagra? I mean, they pretty, they describe the symptoms and they, yeah. So, um, yeah, just take a page and, and tell people where they need to go again. Why you, why now? How can I afford you?Yeah. Mixed with a good, um, you know, diagnosing a symptom symptom when you're there and you have a good sales team that can explain it and, and, and close it. And it's coming to you directly. They trust you. That brand credibility's built, it all works together. Yeah. Um, demand creation feels like, um, it's where a lot of people's heads are at, I think right now.I, you alluded to this, I don't know if it was pre-recording or, or as we were recording, but. 2025 is tougher. Mm-hmm. 2026 is tougher. Yep. Like financing, declines is big. HVAC market is down big. This, we're just in a different, you know, environment right now. Yep. Um, and, and there's less inbound demand to capture.Yep. Uh, and which has been a trend, you know, I've been saying that for years now on the podcast, but, and it's not because it's any less true, it's just, it's a trend of like, yeah. We're kind of on year two or three of like, Hey, leads are weird. You know, pe uh, people got spoiled. I mean, we came outta the pandemic and it didn't drop off right away.And I think now we've returned back to kind of a reality where you need to bring a gun to a knife fight. Yeah. And, um, go after and take share. Well, and weather, like depending on the market has, I mean, weather, like on the, on this side of the country, like we're doing okay. But dude, west Coast is crazy. Yep.So people are moving way more towards demand generation. Yeah. I mean, and like any initial tips, like if, if I've been surviving off of LSA. And, you know, modernized for the past five years and I'm, can't get my phone to ring right now. Mm-hmm. What's my first couple takes? So my first take is, um, every marketing channel has a point diminishing returns.So LSA is great. I attended a talk about this and it's called The Elephant Curve and I loved it. Yep. And it was the guy that built, um. WP Engine, I think like WordPress engine. Okay. Huge, huge freaking business. Yeah. And I, I took so many pictures of this presentation, but it, it was the elephant curve and this really like clocked for me lead channels.Yep. And it was basically. If you look at a channel, over time, it looks like an elephant. So it starts low, it's like the trunk. Mm-hmm. You get success very fast. So a new channel will just explode. Yep. And then it'll taper off. Taper off, and then it'll start sinking down the backside of the elephant. Yep.Because it's gonna diminish over time. I mean, LSA and PPC in particular, I mean. There's efficient clicks, and then there's not efficient clicks. So if, if I'm growing and I need to keep up with my lead flow or my leads are dropping off and I'm just shoveling more and more money, now I'm starting to buy more generic search terms.Now I'm starting to take flyers on some leads that may not be that great. Um, that's where you look elsewhere. I mean, maybe that's, that's the cap. So I'm go and, and create my own. And, um, you know, back to your point, I mean, um. People felt it for one reason or another. In 25, we had a lot of people come to us and when things are good and I'm able, if you're able to just do demand capture and do the stuff that's super easy to track and grow by all means.Well, you word this talk as you can't so can, it was kind of interesting. So the talk was called, um, what to Do when Growth Slows. Yep. It had nothing to do with home service at all. It was like about how to build a tech business. Mm-hmm. Um, but like all the lessons were roughly the same. So it's like, okay, hey, there's an elephant curve with every channel.Yep. So we're going to, we're gonna start meta ads and our first 30 days we're gonna be like, holy shit, we just found God. Right. Like, this totally works and then it's gonna taper. And then, okay, what do we do? And then we're gonna go find the next thing and it's direct mail and whatever. And you just keep finding the next thing.And what was kind of funny is he, he talked about that and like as a concept, if you put, like, you can't just add more channels. Mm-hmm. Because if all you do is add more channels and you have 10 channels and they're all on the elephant curve than all you've created. Is a bigger elephant curve because they're all gonna grow fast and they're all gonna taper fast.Yeah. And the, and the elephant moves. Yeah. Because every time you think you have it figured out, AI comes and disrupts. Yeah. You know, organic and um, you know, click through rates are falling through the floor. Yeah. Because AI's taking the zero click. Yeah. Uh, lead. So you have it figured out, then you gotta shift.So that's why back to, you know, how we started, attribution is a huge, not only to justify what you're spending Yeah. But then also to optimize, Hey, I'm starting to see this decrease. Maybe we should think about taking it over here and, and, uh, so that was the point of the talk was sort of like cost shift.Uh, what, what do you do in that scenario? And it's like, there, there's a, I think there was three solutions. I only remember two of them. It's on YouTube somewhere. Okay. But, uh, one of 'em was like, change the paradigm. So like for us it was, uh, new market was was one where it's like this. No additional new services, but like a new set of customers for the same services.Mm-hmm. Um, like for you maybe it's like, Hey, we're all in home service, but suddenly I see an emerging market in. Uh, like, you know, injury attorneys or something. Yeah, yeah. So same services, uh, new, you know, whatever the other one would be product expansion. So like we're gonna go build a new product and then that's gonna have its big, big explosive, uh, growth phase.I remember the third one, but yeah, tho those two like yeah, sort of clicked for me. Yeah, I mean, always be d differentiating yourself. I mean, I was talking to a plumber last night out on the, on the west coast. I forget which market, but he's adding, you know, water filtrations exploding for him. So, oh, sure. I mean, just verticals that are right along.But hey, if you want to own something, you know, market to own it. So, you know, be the expert there. You can still cover all your other services, but, but, uh, again, invite people to do what they want, what you want them to do. So, hey, call us if you're, you know, in the market for this or X. Yeah. Um. But yeah, always differentiate yourself.Um, I think there's a lot of pull. I mean, there's a lot of market share out for grabs, even though times are tough. Um, we're seeing a lot of consolidation. I mean, all the PE disruption, so, yeah. Um, it's there to be taken. Um. But continuing to optimize, drawing it back to Yeah. What's working and, and um, and getting into that demand creation side is a huge part of it.Yeah. Um, and a lot of people forget about it, got away from it for years, used to do it. Now wanna do it again. So everyone's a little bit different, but, um, that's what we preach. So, uh, we're here to help. But, um. I, I think, you know, at the end of the day when all else fails, turn a scale, marketing is a numbers game to a certain extent.Yeah. So I'm gonna yell my message to a lot of people. Mm-hmm. And some of them will be in the market. Yeah. 1%. Yeah. 1% of 'em. Yeah. Yeah. This is great. Uh, any other thoughts on attribution or like, sort of closing thoughts on how to do this? Well, you know, I, I'd say the biggest thing is, um. You know, always, always vet your partners.Like we specialize in traditional, we do some other things too. We do some other digital, um, marketing as well, but really traditional are staple. So if you're vetting us, we have a pretty good layout of how the attribution on the traditional side works. Um, so I, if you're using somebody else or, you know, vet them, see what they recommend.Yeah. Um, be open to ideas. I think some people get stuck in what they. Things happen. I mean, a business owner is a weird animal. You're not the normal consumer. Yeah. So I think sometimes, oh, I don't watch TV, or I don't do this, or I don't take yourself out of it. Listen to kind of what the research tells you, what the data tells you.The more data you share with with me, the better I can help you. 'cause I, maybe I look at it a different light. Maybe I see correlations to marketing channels that you're missing. So bring in help and uh, and you know, always, always, always, um, take full advantage of the data you pay for your CRM is abl. You just gotta know how to work it.Yeah, most marketing agencies will show you clicks, impressions, and maybe even traffic, but none of that really matters if the phone's not ringing. And that's why we partner with service Scalers. They are built specifically for home service companies and they focus on one thing. Which is driving real high quality calls and book jobs.This is a no brainer. They're offering a 60 day money back guarantee on LSA management, Google Business Profile optimization and website builds. If you don't get more visibility, more calls, and better leads, then you don't pay. If you want more book jobs without the marketing headache, click the link below and book a free strategy call with service scalers.So have someone order that for you or make sure that, and that's really like probably the easiest way to start, like sort of a demand creation is, yeah, you already have data. Yeah, demand cre. I mean, there's a trickle down. Hey, demand creation. I'm getting more direct traffic to your site, so now I don't have to put as much click budget to branded traffic.So now that click budget that I'm using on PPC is now reallocated towards more general search terms. People search for my service and not me. So it all works together. I'm not. Anti diggit or demand capture, because I'm pro demand creation. It all works together. You gotta do both. Yeah. And once you get to that certain plateau point or you're starting to feel it just based on trends, um, don't be afraid to reach out and try something new.Yeah, because it's worked. I mean we're, it was a tough year for our clients too, but I think they felt it a whole lot less than like 25. Yeah. I mean, we were still averaging about a little over 10 x in home services as a whole, so a lot of people can't say that. Um. Because, 'cause most markets it was tough.But yeah, I'll take 10 x as a ba as a benchmark and uh, and go from there. Hopefully 26 easier and we can get to 20 something. Yeah. Yeah. Hell yeah. Cool. Thanks for coming on to This was good. Yeah. If people wanna get ahold of you, how can they find you? Uh, want more-leads.com? There's a, a form fill there. A little bit about us.Um. Our phone number's on there. Feel free to, we'll track the flight time of this podcast. That's it. I am going to be attract minutes when this drop, first got 15 minutes, minutes, but yeah, no, feel free to drop us a line. Uh, my email, phone number's on there. So, um, yeah, happy to help any way we can and, uh, and go from there.But yeah, happy to be back, man. Love it. Cool. Thanks Tony. Yep.
