Referrals are still the #1 growth channel in home services — but most contractors treat it like hope marketing.
In this episode, John Wilson sits down with Murphy Nadauld (ReferPro) to break down how the best operators turn word-of-mouth into a systematic, trackable, ROI-positive referral engine.
They unpack why 83% of customers are willing to refer, yet only 29% actually do — and the three levers that close the gap: awareness, attribution, and automated rewards.
You’ll learn how top HVAC, plumbing, electrical, roofing, and restoration companies:
- Activate referrals directly through technicians in the home
- Build a B2B “affiliate army” (realtors, plumbers, inspectors, restoration partners)
- Tier incentives by job value so referrals scale without blowing up CAC
- Use attribution and automation to make referrals predictable — not random
If you’re a contractor owner who wants referrals on demand, not vibes, this episode is your blueprint.
In This Episode, We Cover:
- The referral gap: why customers want to refer but don’t
- The 3-part referral system: Awareness → Attribution → Rewards
- How “power referrers” actually emerge (and why spend ≠ referrals)
- Technician-driven referrals: QR codes, NFC, truck signage, leave-behinds
💼 Shoutout to ReferPro
Most home service businesses rely on referrals, but without a system, a lot of that revenue gets left on the table. ReferPro helps automate referral reminders, attribution, and rewards so referrals actually turn into booked jobs.
Owned and Operated listeners get 20% off plus discounted onboarding — learn more HERE
💼 Big Reputation — Stop chasing reviews and watching competitors outrank you. Big Reputation is the AI-powered review + SEO platform built for home service pros. Automate review generation, respond with AI, track local SEO, and integrate with your CRM. Setup is free, and your first month’s on the house.
💼 Shoutout to Quick Staffers LLC
Need trained HVAC & plumbing CSRs at a fraction of the cost? Quick Staffers LLC specializes in placing top-tier global talent with the best SOPs and scripts.
🔥 Get $1,000 off your first placement HERE
Guests / Hosts:
John Wilson – Owned and Operated
https://x.com/WilsonCompanies
Murphy Nadauld – ReferPro
https://www.linkedin.com/in/murphy-nadauld-183301106/
More Ways To Connect with O&O
John Wilson, CEO of Wilson Companies
Jack Carr, CEO of Rapid HVAC
📌 Disclaimer: Some links may include UTM parameters or affiliate relationships, meaning we may earn a commission if you make a purchase. Episodes may feature sponsors, but all opinions expressed are our own.
OAO 276
[00:00:00] Welcome back to Owned and Operated. I'm your host, John Wilson, and today I'm joined by Murphy Nadal from Refer Pro, and we are talking about how to drive referrals into your business. To help you grow.
Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here with you.
Yeah, this'll be fun. Like I said moments ago, off camera referrals feels like one of those things that should work.
Like, you always want it, it's like, uh, word of mouth, like how do you like institutionalize word of mouth. But I, we've never been able to do a great job of it. So I'm excited to learn. I'm excited to figure out how to do it.
Yeah, that's what we, that's what we talk about all day. We become experts. So my background is in Yeah, some home service background.
And so we've seen this from the operator side and now working with businesses across the country. Just what that, what that difference is. Referrals are as old as time, right? We're not reinventing the wheel here. That's how most of our companies and, and customers and partners have gotten most of their business historically, but.
There's just a big gap that, that we can dive into on how, how you take that from organic and kind of set it aside and let it happen naturally.
Mm-hmm.
To systematizing it [00:01:00] and actually seeing results at scale within your company.
Yeah. So what was your background in, in home service?
Yeah, so I ha I guess most of my background is tech.
Uh, worked for a company called Ubiquity, similar to Cisco. Yeah. Uh, Robert Perra owns. Memphis Grizzlies and, and kind of in your neck of the woods over here, uh, worked for him for five years on the tech side, did some other AI and machine learning startups. But within that time period, I also had a home service company.
It was an Airbnb short-term rental cleaning business that we scaled up and sold. So,
okay.
Within that year or so that we scaled and sold that business, I saw this pain point. And then, uh, just personally as we, uh, were in Utah, we finished our basement and our landscape. Mm-hmm. I had 15 different home service contractors from hvac, plumbing, electrical, yeah.
Everybody in kind of a unique situation within two months at my house. And so I was getting referrals. I was passing those referrals on and seeing how those businesses manage that process. We started to ask them, you know, what that process was like. And it was a total, a total nightmare for most of those companies.
Mm-hmm.
But they said all that business and, and we know now in home service, most of that business does [00:02:00] come from referrals, word of mouth, organically happening. Um, and so we kind of built that, that was an incubator with all those, those 15 companies that were my home over those two months, we built exactly what they wanted to manage that referral process.
And that's when Fer repro was born two, two and a half, three years ago at this point.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. What did they want?
So it was, I think it's,
I, I imagined the way the story was gonna go is we built exactly what they wanted and then we had to destroy it because they didn't know what they wanted. Like I thought that's what the pitch
Yeah.
It was, it was a balance of those two kind of taking, Hey, here's the problem more so. Yeah. And like, how can we solve that problem? Right. They didn't, they didn't know the solution necessarily. But
yeah,
there's three gaps. An interesting stat that we found in home service specifically is that 83% of your customers are willing to refer your business, meaning you've done the hard work.
Oh, sure.
You've built the trust, they're, they're ready to refer you. Right? There's obviously some that are upset, but only 29% actually do so. 83% are willing. Only 29% actually do. Okay? And in most cases, I think it's actually less than 29% that are actually referring you actively. So there's this 54% delta of customers [00:03:00] who would refer you, but who don't refer you for whatever reason.
We've broken it down those three reasons. Number one. Is just creating awareness. You've gotta stay front of mind with your customers, so
mm-hmm.
They're not naturally waking up. Some of 'em are, but six months later, 12 months later, they don't wake up thinking about your HVAC company or your plumbing company, right?
Yeah. They've got, they, they got other things. So you've gotta stay front of mind. You've gotta create that awareness. That's the first thing that we solve. Number two is tracking that attribution. So whether you ServiceTitan or whatever CRM it might be, we can track that attribution back into ServiceTitan.
So every time you get a referral. You know exactly who it came from, whether it was a customer, if there was a technician involved in that process, or if it was another affiliate, B2B referrals or other affiliates, technicians from other companies that could.
Mm-hmm.
So making it very easy to track the track, the data, the attribution, have that data present so that you can then reward those people on that.
On that third side, these businesses in my home, for example, we're offering referral incentives. Like I've been offered so many, Hey, 200 bucks for a success referral here, 500 bucks.
Like what? From who?
From these home service businesses. Right. Hey, if you send us a successful referral, we'll, we'll reward you for that, but okay.[00:04:00]
Without the attribution, there's no way to do that. So what happens is,
but you as a homeowner.
As a homeowner, exactly.
Oh, interesting. I
don't
know that I've ever been offered a
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, I would take 200 bucks.
Yeah. So it's, I mean, and, and we can get into, there's, that's a huge lever we can pull, depending on the vertical, right?
If you're HVAC or roofing, it depends on the ROI. Mm-hmm. And what you're willing to spend. But you can incentivize those people for those referrals, and it makes 'em that much more likely. But if you offer the incentive. These businesses were driving around to Walgreens, picking up gift cards, dropping 'em off, and they wasted an hour of their day just to do that.
And so if you can automate that system and say, Hey John, refer Jane, and as soon as Jane pays and we can track that invoice data, we can then automate the payment to John for that. And then we have 230 redemption options. For rewards, for customers, for affiliates, for your, for your technicians on the job, to get them motivated and excited and bought into that process.
So that's how our whole focus is to bridge that gap. How do we get more incremental referrals on top of what you get organically today?[00:05:00]
Remember hearing about like this type of technology, uh, I don't know, like six months ago or something like that. And the first thing that came to my mind had nothing to do with homeowners at all. So I'm, I'm really interested to like. Here, how that works. But it was very B2B two B, which is still awesome.
We're, we almost do no [00:06:00] B2B, but, um, my first thought was referring realtors or home inspection companies, or even can you use it somehow to refer other, like, we own a restoration department, so can we use that to beef out the amount of plumbers in other companies that like, Hey, refer your buddy who's also a plumber and send us leads.
So that was like my first thought. Is that something that.
Absolutely do. Yeah. I mean, especially as you mentioned on the restoration side where there's a lot of, you know, re referrals from plumbers. We can manage that. I think we put that into three buckets. There's customer referrals, home service businesses are sitting on a gold mine of referrals from your existing customer base.
Mm-hmm. So that's, that's funnel number one. I think that's, that drives the highest volume.
Yeah.
Bucket number two is your existing, your employees, your technicians that are in the home. Historically, uh, you guys probably do a better job of this, but most businesses, they're not asking for referrals. They're not asking for reviews because their goal is to get to the next job,
right?
They're incentivized to get to the next job, get, get done for the day. So if they have an incentive, and the same thing, if that data's getting tracked and they're getting rewarded for those referrals, they have some skin in the game.
What, what does that, I'm trying to [00:07:00] envision like what that would look like.
So we provide anyone that signs up for a fur pro, we provide a whole onboarding box. So there's physical materials for those technicians. They've got. NFC technology on their key chain? Yeah. That they can scan to tap, to scan kind of technology they've got. So like
they're going to neighbor's houses or like they drive a new lead in the same customer house from home.
Okay. So same home?
Yeah,
I'm in the home. Okay.
And it's, yeah. As we're, as we're wrapping up, uh, Hey Jane, thanks so much for having say yeah, if you know anyone else that, that needs their HVAC done today or anytime, okay. Scan this QR code. I've got a badge on my hip or it's on my phone or it's, it's tap to scan technology.
Yeah. There's multiple different ways. QR codes on the truck. Leave behinds, right? Leave them the business card. Yeah. You know what? I don't have one right now, but thank you for scanning this. Then, then that technician gets credit and then later that night we follow up with a drip campaign. So they get the text, they get the email.
Okay. That kind of kicks that off. So it's a warm intro. They heard about it from their technician, they got the text message, and then we can engage them throughout the year. So it's, you know, it takes multiple touch points, but then three months later when they're thinking about it and someone at the barbecues needs [00:08:00] HVAC done.
They're coming to you. They remember that technician. Mm-hmm. They remember their code. They've got an affiliate link. Instead of just passing it over, they're thinking, Hey, I can get paid out on this, so I'm gonna put it through my link and, and send this referral. So yeah, in the home, the technic, we wanna get the technicians involved for sure.
Yeah. No, that's interesting. Alright. What was the third bucket?
Yeah, third bucket is affiliates. So that could be other businesses that could technicians of other businesses. So for your, your restoration business, you're looking at, Hey, how many plumbing businesses can we get on as an affiliate? Yeah. And historically what's happened here is, is that business has their own priorities.
Mm-hmm.
Their technicians are in the home. The last thing they're thinking about is referring your restoration company.
Yeah.
So you wanna make it very easy for them. Again, stay front of mind with them, give them links to automate and track that and spiff them if you can. Right. So, so then the technicians of those plumbing businesses that are in the home, seeing those problems that you can come do restoration with, they have that link in the ability to send that lead to you and it's tracked.
So it goes straight to your CSRs. It gets tracked in. Refer pro as well as your CRM ServiceTitan. And so it just streamlines that whole process from customers to technicians to [00:09:00] affiliates. And there's, there's multiple buckets for affiliates. It could be a realtor, it could be a, another plumbing company in this case,
some something.
I, we were looking into this for our restoration department. Um. I think we launched it. I gotta check, but we were gonna use ClickFunnels. Yeah. Which is like, not the use case for this at all, but, uh, they have, uh, they have like this affiliate section, but the whole idea was, um, and so maybe this would be a feature.
Feature request.
Yeah. I love it.
Bring it on. Yeah, it's awesome. What, what would be sick is can you, if you're trying to bring on more like plumbing referrals as a re restoration department, um, or realtors or whatever, like, that's a very easy group to find on Facebook. So we were gonna run Facebook ads into a ClickFunnels campaign and then like build out a, an affiliate package underneath that.
Yeah, I like that.
So, yeah. 'cause I think the only downside, uh. Well, it's an easy pitch, like restoration or any of this stuff is an easy pitch. Like, Hey, do you wanna make extra money? Like Yeah. Like, do you literally just wanna make extra money?
Yeah, absolutely. Build, [00:10:00] building this army of advocates, this army of affiliates.
And so that is an interesting take. We could definitely spin
because all of it's in person, but like how, like if it's a B2B referral thing, like you could just as easily run meta ads on that.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and the, our, our landing pages, the, the affiliate links that every customer and employee and affiliate gets.
Mm-hmm. Are integrated into social media platforms, so
Okay.
They can integrate into text. So when they tee up that two or three way text, it's starting the attribution piece so it can funnel that lead and track who sent it. It's also integrated into the Facebook group, Instagram, yeah. For when people post.
So it kicks off that attribution on the, on the front end as well as obviously that sits there in that Facebook community page for years to come collecting referrals from that. So,
yeah. And recruitment. Are people using it for recruitment yet?
Yeah. Some of the biggers. Yeah. The bigger the business, the more need there is for that.
So we work with a lot of the, the PE backed roll up groups that one of their big problems is, Hey, obviously we want more leads and more business, but also we need more technicians. So,
yeah,
totally. Yeah. I mean, I mean, the most likely group to recruit technicians [00:11:00] from is within your technicians. They, their circle of influence, so you can run in the same
mm-hmm.
Same program internally to. One, generate new recruits and then to reward and incentivize those to keep them and And have better retention among your employees as well.
Yeah. So for like a customer, I'm a customer. You're a customer.
Yeah.
What am I saying to get this person? Because that's where I get stuck on referral technology is I'm just like.
Why would, why would anybody give a shit?
Yeah.
It's like, what am I saying? To get someone to give a shit.
Yeah. And you're saying for a customer?
Yeah. Like how, how do I, how do I actually turn this like one time? Maybe it's, maybe it's the first bucket. The customer referral bucket.
Yeah.
Not the employees on site and you know, we like Jimmy or something like that.
Yeah, yeah. We're gonna do a favor, like, what am I saying in those messages to sort of ignite some be or change behavior. Yeah. Get them actually referring.
That's where, that's where Refer pro. So powerful. So we wanna personalize. You don't wanna just send out the same message to everybody. Right.
Right.
We personalize [00:12:00] that data based on past behavior.
So if you have 10,000 customers or, or every year you do a thousand jobs, every one of those customers has a different path and a different journey. So
yeah,
you might have Jake over here who's, who's done an install with you. They've spent $15,000 and Jake has now sent you 25 referrals. Jake goes into this flow.
There's a workflow with, with
Jake. The, is Jake the
customer?
Jake is the end user. The, yeah, the the end user customer.
Okay. Jake's customer, we like Jake
based on Jake's past behavior, he sent X amount of reviews. He is referred, he spent this, yeah, he gets a separate workflow based on his past behavior. So you, because iss
a baller, like Right, he's a
baller.
Jake,
25 is, that's a lot.
Jake's a VIP. Right. So you put him, you have different workflows. Versus, uh, Jane who maybe has done a service call and you've never heard from her again. Right. You send,
so we're trying to find like, power refers.
Power refers. We're filtering them.
Okay.
With with AI to decide who are the best, who are the best affiliates.
It's the 80 20 principle. Right. You're gonna take all of your customer base.
Mm-hmm.
We're gonna get more referrals from all of them, but we're gonna start to identify which group of those affiliates over time are gonna [00:13:00] be your power users. Right.
Okay.
The ones who are
like, they probably have spent the most with us already.
Yeah.
And not even the most, but probably like the most. Number of instances, it might be less money, but if they've used us 10 times, like one guy that used us for 20 grand once versus 20 grand over 10 in invoices, the second guy likes us more.
Yeah, typically. But there's also, that's what's cool with the data is that doesn't always mean that they're gonna refer more.
You could get referrals from someone who's used you for a service call.
Yeah.
Who. Versus someone who's used you 10 times and just doesn't refer, so,
okay.
It's, it's more about staying front of mind and then tracking what happens so that you can mm-hmm. You can react accordingly with a personalized message.
So when your customer Jane feels like, Hey, this is a, this is a typical review request post service. That's one thing, it still works, don't get me wrong, but when you have the sentiment analysis and the workflows Yeah. To attribute that three months later you can talk to Jane about, Hey, we saw that you used, you know, we bought, we paid you Delta, A Delta gift card.
How, how are your flights? And you know, [00:14:00] do you have anyone else you can cater that message personally to her? So she feels like it's a person reaching out?
Mm-hmm.
And you can then scale, you're basically scaling personalized outreach for your business versus just a, a marketing blast, for example. So as a business owner, the more scale you get.
The more valuable that becomes to keep personalized touchpoints with all of your customers and then track that data so that you can react to that in future campaigns. So those campaigns are a really powerful piece.
Oh yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. So like who is the, if I'm looking at my customer base today, who is like the best, who, uh, a power refer is gonna be like 1% right?
Or how, what percentage I guess there,
yeah. The cool thing is you got leaderboards. It's, it's different for every business, right? For, for, uh, depending on, you wanna look at your ticket size, you wanna look at, uh, all, all these different factors. Yeah. But it's, yeah. Anywhere between one and 10% of your customers are gonna be like.
10 plus referers, and then there's kind of these tiers, right?
10 plus referers as in like they will give 10 referrals,
10 plus referral. Yeah. There's kind of this, this tier, this top tier who are like,
yeah,
they're telling everyone they know about it over that year.
Yeah, [00:15:00]
and the reason why is because historically, if they send you a referral.
For the case for most businesses is they never hear about that again, so.
Mm-hmm.
From ex, from experience, I've sent referrals to these businesses and then I talked to my buddy two weeks later and he is like, dude, I can't even get ahold of them. Sure. Don't even call me back. Right. Yeah. So it's making sure that lead gets tracked and the CSR is on top of it immediately.
That's one thing. And the speed to lead following those referrals is huge, obviously. So making sure that data gets funneled accordingly. Um. And then there's the, the, as those leads get taken care of, that, that person now, they're much, much more willing to refer in the future because they know that they trust your business, that they're gonna take care of the lead, that they get credit for it.
And then if instead of, you know, you do offer some sort of incentive, Hey, if you're a HVAC and we every new install, we will give you a $250 incentive for that. Pay that all day. Right? That that's way lower. Customer acquisition cost in traditional marketing methods. Not that it replaces that, but it's, it's a nice value add.
They get that the next day versus your finance team having to cut a check that takes a month and, and in most cases never happens.
Mm-hmm.
They get that [00:16:00] incentive automatically the next day. And as they're using that Delta gift card for flights to Mexico or whatever, they're thinking about your business.
So now they're much more likely to refer because they resonate that experience with your business. They're like, Hey, Wilson hooks it up. Right. Tony can't do it. They take care of me when I send referrals, so I'm gonna be sending more and more referrals. And then you've got the dashboard, the leaderboard internally, so you can see which of those customers are your power users.
Mm-hmm. How much you're sending them, uh, how many referrals, how much revenue they're driving. Very, very micro based data on. Not just our referral channel campaign compared to our other, you know, Google and meta ads.
Mm-hmm.
But, but broken down by customer and employee or affiliate, you can see all of that data.
What, of the three buckets, what's the highest performing?
Well, it's customers just from a pure volume perspective. I think for, for individual, just
because I could send a blast to.
Yeah. It's, it's a numbers game
versus like the 200 we saw today or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, your existing customers on those post service and, and there's a recency bias, right?
Yeah. You're gonna be more effective. That post service is more effective than, than one way later, but, but it [00:17:00] all builds on each other and it builds momentum.
Yep.
I think the, that in-person stuff, the employees are much more efficient, so the volume's not as big, but if you've got. A business like yours that has a ton of employees and technicians out in the field.
Mm-hmm.
If you can get them bought in on that process and incentivized accordingly, they could drive a much larger share of the revenue because it's much more efficient. The, the badge scan or you know, that in-person interaction when, when they scan that to their link, it's a 40% conversion rate to a referral on a successful referral, but just a referral received.
So that's much higher than the campaigns. Yeah. The campaigns just have a bigger volume, so it just depends on, yeah. On your business a little bit. It's a volume play, but it's also an efficiency play. So it's balancing those things and we've got a lot of data to support, Hey, what is the timing of those messages and the triggers and, and the verbiage that you should send in those different cadences to personalize it.
How much should that incentive be for your technician, your employee, for for the customer? Once those go out, the higher the better. So we wanna work backwards from your business. If your HVAC and, and your average ticket size is X, we wanna work backwards from there. It's all ROI based. [00:18:00] So,
but could it be segmented?
So like, HVAC's a great example because on the install side it's like $15,000 on the service. It might be like 200.
Yeah.
So it's not like you can pay so, so you can do that. So, yeah.
Yeah.
Like, hey, you referred an install, so you get, I don't know what. $200.
Yeah. Up to people. I mean, in, in roofing we're, we have up to 2000 people up to 2000.
Oh, hvac. Yeah.
Send me out for that.
And HVAC, between 105 hundred, depending on your tolerance, what you wanna do. Right. Okay. There are big, there are big levers from 50 to a hundred, there's a huge jump in conversion from a hundred to two 50. Another massive jump.
Really.
500 is off the charts like. So you just have to decide, hey, what are we willing, what's our customer acquisition cost?
Yeah.
The higher you go, it's still, you're giving that back to your customer. It's still probably gonna be less than you would spend on a traditional install customer acquisition. Yeah. So we work with the business, we work as consultants to say, Hey, here's the data, here's what we know. But you, you obviously.
Decide what works best for you. But
yeah,
there are pretty significant conversion rate differences the higher that it
jumps. So 50. Yeah, I mean, that [00:19:00] makes sense. So 50 to a hundred, a hundred to 2 50, 2 50 to five and five and up.
Yeah. And you tier it. So yeah. Up to that. And we have tiers built out. So yeah, if it's a service, if it's a service call for the 350 bucks, you're not gonna pay out a $250 incentive on that.
So it's tiered based on revenue, and you don't pay that out until you get the revenue on it. So that's, that's the beautiful thing for the business
Yeah.
That we partner with is. You're not paying that marketing fee until you've already got the, the revenue in the door.
Yeah. I'm, I'm trying to imagine how the tier system would work.
Yeah, so someone just inserts the tiers and then Joe, Joe refers Jane. Jane could buy something for a hundred bucks and she gets. Joe gets 50 or 20,000, she gets 500 or something like that. Is So it's built in as tiers or do I just pick 500?
Yeah, we build out those tiers in onboarding it's, it's aul. Okay.
Consultative approach. Okay. And I think half the value, obviously is having the technology with the refer Pro platform,
but we can have multiple, we can do whatever we want.
You do whatever you want. Okay. We, we consult with you in onboarding and [00:20:00] say, Hey, how do you wanna build out this template? Yeah. So your customers are getting that messaging, they understand it.
And then on the back end when we get that referral, Jennifer's Jane. Uh, it, it stacks into a tier and then you have the flexibility to stick with that tier. Or in certain cases you can break the mold, but mm-hmm. But it's set up so it, it automates that payout on the backend based on the tiers that we set up when you, when you start it, essentially.
Yeah. It feels pretty good. I mean, it, it seems like, um, I mean, the roofing would be really interesting windows, so you guys like,
yeah,
yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I mean, all that big stuff seems huge. $2,000 is amazing.
Yeah. I mean, it converts to a high ratio. Oh, yeah. Obvious. See, they're paying more, but I, I think in the long run.
They would rather give that back to their customer. It pays off. Yeah. In the long run with, with the customer acquisition costs and it's all data driven, right? You look at that, every business is a little different. That's why we work as consultants to help you figure out what the best practices are and how those actually apply to your business, but based on the return on your other marketing methods, how do we, how do we stack on top of that, right?
Yeah. You don't wanna replace that. They're both powerful engines, but generally speaking, the referral side of things, no matter [00:21:00] how much you incentivize, is gonna be cheaper in the long run. Getting those, you look at the first time referral and the revenue driven, but also. The lifetime value of that customer now is huge too, especially on those big ticket items.
When does it not work?
Yeah, I think there's cases where two big things, if, if you're really, really small it, it is a numbers game. So if you're a brand new business, referrals are tough because you don't have
who you gonna
referral customers to ask referrals from. Yeah. So. I think the bigger the business the better.
Is there like a good customer list size to start
if you're under a thousand? Uh, that's tough. It's tricky. And less, again, you lean into, hey, we've got affiliates. We want to use tech plumbing technicians to refer our business as restoration. Or you know, if you've got a massive ticket size and you only need, if the number of referrals you need for a successful ROI is less great.
So there are some levers there like. If you're roofing under a thousand, you can still see success. But generally speaking, if you're under a thousand customers, we typically tell people, Hey, let's, let's help you. We'll get ready. But don't, don't start refer pro until, until you've got a little bit bigger base to start with.
'cause
yeah,
we wanna set you up for success. So I think that's the [00:22:00] number one thing is just size of the business. And so, yeah, we work with all the, all the, all the bigger PE rollups across the country, down to, you know, we do work with owner operators, really, really small businesses, and there's ways we can see success, but.
Generally speaking, it is a numbers game, obviously, so,
yeah. That's interesting. Any, any thought, any take on like referring mattering in 20 25, 26 more than like 21, 22? Or is it just, it seems like more technology is coming up around it in the last 18 months than I've ever seen.
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, I don't know that it's a specific difference from five years ago, but I would say.
It is much more possible now to take what has historically been viewed as an organic channel that's left on the shelf. Yeah. Most of our business comes from referrals and we don't touch it.
Yeah.
My question is, hey, if most of your business comes from referrals and word of mouth, what are you doing to optimize that?
That's your number one channel.
Yeah.
If we can increment, if, if we can get 10, 20% growth in that channel, how valuable is that for your business? And most people look at me with a blank stare and it's like, Hey, we can help you with that. So [00:23:00] I think it's taking the tools that are available now, plugging that in that automation, that technology that's available.
To help scale that across, across your whole business, within your technicians. So I think it's more just what's possible now. And instead of treating that as an organic off the shelf, just leave. Let that be, be proactive. I think there's a lot of value that people don't realize in being proactive about referrals.
That you can go get incremental new revenue that we track and there's ROI, you know, every day you'll see the top of the dashboard, ROI on how many clicks to how many referrals, to how many successful referrals, to how much revenue do we generate this month. And it becomes. Such a no brainer once you see that funnel.
Yeah.
Across the referral platform,
le Yeah. Leads are complicated. Like I, I see people getting more leads. Uh, the challenge is closing them, but I would assume like a referral versus like a more transactional Google experience would probably do better, I guess. I don't know.
Yeah. I mean,
could you have data to back that up?
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, on the conversion rate and the close rate. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. So we see. [00:24:00] And, and if you look at this from the top down, you get a referral who came from a trusted friend or family that's already used you.
Mm-hmm.
What's your experience with those? I think you're, you're
so, yeah.
We're an old business. Uh. 70 years. Yeah. So like most of our business is repeat, 70% of our daily appointments is our repeat.
Yeah. That's awesome.
So
being
Yeah, it is. And you know, we're, we're acquiring other businesses right now and it's funny to look at some of, not funny, like bad, but just different, you know, we're, we're looking at these businesses and we're like, oh man.
80% of their business is net new customers every day. Yeah. But they have a customer list of 9,000. So like what does that, how, what do we do there? How do we sort of reactivate these customers? Yeah. So we have like a reactivation sequence that we're gonna start putting 'em through. But the referral thing's pretty interesting.[00:25:00]
Yeah. I mean, if you, if you look at someone looks on Google, they're gonna, they're gonna get quotes from five businesses around you. Referrals. I look at a way to skip to the front of the line. Mm-hmm. If, if your friend had already used that HVAC company tells you, Hey, I trust these guys. They're awesome.
One when you're, especially referrals tend to be bigger ticket items because you lean on trust more when you're doing something big. If it's a service call, you might not care. You do the first person on Google and they show up and it's great. When you're spending $15,000, you're gonna go with who you already saw installed down the street that your friend referred you to at the barbecue.
Yeah.
So you basically skip the line. Yeah. And that's why the conversion rate is so much higher. We see that we use refer Pro at re refer Pro. A lot of our customers, you know, who watch this have come by way of referrals from other businesses. Yeah,
yeah.
That's so [00:26:00] powerful to say, Hey, refer Pro works for us.
Here's our dashboard. Look at the results versus, oh, I saw 'em on a, on a marketing ad. I'm gonna do all my research. I'm gonna go talk to five other people and get quotes. But when you get that as a referral, you essentially skip to the front of the line. So yeah, that also drives down costs. It's, it's not as hard to close those leads.
Yep.
They're typically golden leads lay down in most cases. The conversion rates are, are pretty drastically different from our experience. And obviously that depends on the business, but generally speaking, it's, it's a powerful
Oh
yeah.
Conversion rate there. Yeah. No, I believe it. I believe it when exact language.
I'm trying to imagine what, like a customer blast looks like.
Yeah.
And this is where I always get lost. Every time I hear about, I'm like, well, you know, okay, I wanna start getting referrals. What do I say?
Yeah. So some of the elements that make it personalized, we wanna go. Personalization is huge, so,
mm-hmm.
In the first one, it's, it's referencing that, that service, that day, maybe it's the technician's name because hopefully that technician said [00:27:00] something or they recognize it. It's um. We put videos from the owner in there, right? In the, in the landing page. Mm-hmm.
So
instead of just the text, it's the, it's the owner explaining, Hey, thanks so much for using us.
Here's our referral program. Yeah. We want, this is a way for us to give back to you, um, ways to reference that incentive amount. Right. That's, that's a powerful thing. If you are offering $250. This, this comes across much, much less like a, a review request or a market, Hey, come 20% off. It's a way to give back to you.
Hopefully you already refer us. If you don't, here's an easy way to do it and we want to give back to you. So they look at it as, as an opportunity to feel like, Hey, we're partnered with this business in, in driving more referrals and they're gonna take care of us. It's a mutual benefit here, versus just they're asking me for something.
Mm-hmm. So those are some of the levers that we can pull on that first message. Obviously as we follow on that cadence is important. The timing is important. Um, we wanna stay front of mind, and so whether that touchpoint is triggered on past behavior, whether they, they drive a Google review and that's a good time to, to follow up.
There's also other campaigns that we [00:28:00] can drive too, if, like reengagement, you know, a byproduct of asking for referrals is re-engaging those customers to come back and book revenue. So we track all that, all those repeat customers coming back because you engage them with that referral request. Or it could be a, a membership.
Um, sign up request, right? Yeah. There's a lot of different ways that we can engage. The goal is to have a personalized way to stay front of mind, and that drives referrals, that drives reengaging, customers returning. So those are some of the levers that we can pull to stay personalized. That's the goal.
Keep it personalized. The goal is to have them feel like you're personally reaching out with that video, with that custom message that's coming to them. So,
yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. That is interesting. What, what's, uh. I'm trying to imagine how the, uh, video works in like a PE roll up.
Yeah.
Like who's the video of?
Yeah. In, in that case, it depends, right? It could be the gm, it could be. Okay. It could be anyone.
So driven individual by brand still.
Yeah. Still by brand.
Yeah. K. [00:29:00] Jim Bob from Jim Bob's. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
All that, all that outreach is branded. Those, those landing pages are branded to the business. Your logos there, everything is branded to the business.
So, I mean, it depends. Whoever the business wants is the face. Yeah. It could be the gm, it could be A-A-C-S-R, it could be a technician that,
yeah,
it's, uh, it's good on camera. Like you, you decide it, it depends on the scale of the business, but just having that way to scale personalized outreach, the, the bigger the business, the harder it becomes to, yeah, stay in touch with your, it, it's impossible at some stage.
Right. And so. Having the way to, well,
I almost wonder if it's the opposite, because as you, as you're saying this, uh, some of the feedback that we've been getting recently and we're like adjusting to it Yeah. Is like, Hey, you've gone too far. Like there's too much communication
Yeah.
Uh, from a plumbing company, which like, hey, like, yeah.
At the end of the day, like, we're here to fix toilets. So I'm, I'm trying to imagine how this blends in with the review request. Yeah. Or the reactivation campaigns or like. All of the other stuff that now happens inside customer [00:30:00] databases.
Yeah. Like
what, what have you guys seen?
Yeah. So today those actions and triggers in our campaigns are based off of those other things.
So again, part of that consultative approach during onboarding is, Hey, what do you already have? What else are
you using? Yeah.
When does, when does your review go out? When do you do X, Y, Z?
Yeah.
Let's avoid those times
the
rehash campaigns for sales. Like it's a lot. There's a lot that goes out these days.
Yeah, it's kind crazy percent. Yeah. It's a ba like you said, it's a balance of staying front of mind and not overdoing it. Yeah. So this intelligent approach, we've got this, this campaign feature that can trigger an action based on when you want it. So yeah. We'll, we'll delay that. We'll say, hey, if you've got, if you've got three things already post-service, let's delay that a week till till.
It's a better time to send that. Ultimately driving and, and kind of unifying that channel with this intelligent outreach is, is the long term goal here. But for now, it's, it's, yeah. Reacting to what you already have in place and spacing that out intelligently so it's not hitting them with the same thing.
And, and also it's much more effective if you, if you reach out at the same time and ask for a review or referral, a membership request and an invoice payment.
Yeah.
Three hours after [00:31:00] the job you're gonna get the invoice and they're not gonna do anything else. So
yeah,
you've gotta have, have a smart cadence there to make sure.
You don't wanna ask for them all at once. You want to, you wanna be intelligent about when that happens so that you get maximum results. If you bombard them with too many requests at the same time, you end up getting nothing. It's too diluted.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we're in the age of a lot of communication.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Sure. I think it's easy to get, easy to get lost in the sauce,
and that's also why that personal approach is helpful. Right. You want to engage if your technicians there talking in person.
Mm-hmm.
That can be that first touch point, and then you can delay if you really lean into that employee program.
You can delay the messaging for, for later on as a reminder instead of as the first touchpoint. So
yeah,
there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of best practices that we can drive, but it's really just blending what works on the referral side of things and how does your business operate today? And then bridging that gap to make sure you have a successful program to drive whatever results you're looking for.
If, if the results for that month of referrals, let's, let's target that.
Yeah.
If you've got other, other goals for the, the following [00:32:00] months or quarters, we can, we can switch that up.
Yeah. What's the, um, like. Without,
I'm trying to imagine how to ask this question. I'm, I'm doing a rough job here, but on a thousand customers, how many referrals? Like what, what's the best way to measure that? Yeah. Like what should I expect if, if I start doing something?
Yeah. Yeah. So backing up a lot of, we have data broken down and, and we go on the onboarding, Hey, based on X, Y, Z, if you're gonna do this onboard, if you're gonna do this incentive.
If you've got this many customers
Yeah.
Technicians hitting it, there's a lot of factors in that,
right? If I do like a $500 incentive,
yeah.
Yeah.
So those conversion rates very drastically. But generally speaking, you're gonna have, so if on the technician, the conversion ratio there, every time that is exposed to them to either tap or scan, it's a 40% conversion to a referral received.
That's the best one. The affiliates are, are similar. If they're in person, uh, they're also higher 'cause they're, they're lower volume, but they're higher tier. So those referrals coming from them are high. The [00:33:00] messaging, uh, text is much better than email. Um, we're moving from SMS to RCS two. It's a new standard, which is gonna personalize that.
It's pretty cool. Most people don't know about RCS, but if you message, yeah, what is it? Message with Apple or Delta, for example, historically you're not messaging a number. You're messaging the Wilson logo at the top of that page and it's, it's a branded experience. It's more of an in-app experience from your phone.
Okay. So it's pretty, it's pretty cool that rolling out now. So RCS is a game changer for that, to personalize that and improve conversion rates from also deliverability and also just trust of that. Customer, you're talking to the business with the logo there.
Mm-hmm.
So those are, um, the texting, conversion rates.
Obviously everyone's on their phone. Those are much higher than the email. The email's still good. We wanna target that in a strategic way, but, but the texting converts much higher to, uh, clicks, referrals, success, referrals, and that's all driven through that pipeline. So,
yeah. Yeah. And what's a good num like.
Yeah.
So, and out of a thousand, like how, I'm trying to imagine how this spiders out.
Yeah. So if you're looking at, [00:34:00] um, just generally speaking, you're between one to 2% referral rate per, per message sent, basically. Okay. So if you've got a thousand customers, um, and, and, and, and that grows as well with momentum.
So the first one is kind of like awareness generating. Right?
Right.
So that'll spread out time. Here's a
new program.
Yeah. Over overall, you know, you're looking at, um. Probably 10 referrals per month, per thousand, depending on that cadence if you do
per a thousand messages or per thousand
customers. Per a thousand customers.
Okay.
Yeah. Um, and you don't wanna message 'em all every month either, right? Yeah, sure. So that's why, that's why it's tough to, yeah. To gauge that you want to, you wanna space that out.
Okay?
Your post service is gonna be a much higher converting ratio. And then, and then your follow on campaigns. Yeah. But, but generally speaking, it's gonna be the size of the amount, amount of customers you have, number one, how engaged your technicians are in that process, how high that incentive is, those, those are the factors that lead to that referral success.
And then, and then obviously we track the conversion ratio, but some of that depends on the business. So some businesses [00:35:00] are much better than others. At, Hey, we, we've generated 30, you've got 30 new referrals this month in your platform. Some go convert 70% of those. Yeah. And the revenue is off the charts.
Mm-hmm.
Some of them don't do as good of a job of speed to lead or follow up. And so that obviously affects that conversion ratio from, you know, messages sent to revenue generated from the start to the finish. And so there's a lot of factors in there. I'd say we have, we have, we break it down. There's best practices on the, on the platform side that here's the tool if it's used correctly.
These are the results that it drives. Part of that is speed to lead. Calling those leads your close rate internally, that stuff is affected greatly by the, by the business as well.
Yeah, that's really interesting. Alright, so for like, uh, what, what was to Tommy? The, I think he says he hits 20,000 customers a month.
So like 200 referrals a month, 300 referrals a month would be like an expectation.
Yeah. Something That's a lot. Yeah. Something in that ballpark. Yeah. Yeah. We've got, we've got businesses doing millions of dollars
Yeah.
In, [00:36:00] in a few months time.
Yeah. That's a lot
on, on referrals, right. So,
yeah. That's interesting.
Yeah. Again, there's a ton of factors at play. Totally. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, you're looking at average. Average, and it also depends on, you know, which, which CRM you're using, right? Yeah. We wanna work with businesses that have that direct integration. We partner with most of the big ones, you know? Mm-hmm.
We're partners in integrated with, with ServiceTitan. With jobber.
Mm-hmm.
With job nimbus, with client te with most of these big ones, we can then do secondary, like Zapier integrations.
Yeah. Yeah.
Second par, third party, but part of that helps automate that so the business doesn't have to do anything. It makes it much easier
Yeah.
To get that, that lead flow and conversion rate. So yeah.
Yeah, that's, that's really cool. That's really cool. Alright, so what do you think ref, what do you think future of referral marketing looks like? Like what do you think's next?
Yeah, we've leaned on that, that personalized approach. I think that's the big,
yeah, that is interesting
is not just taking one, going from organic to just letting it happen to then being proactive and then being proactive in the age of ai, we don't just use AI to use ai, we use [00:37:00] AI to analyze the sentiment of these messages coming in.
How do we categorize that customer? What's the past behavior of that customer? And then how do we respond? What, what is the right approach, right? Instead of just scheduling review, referral and service requests and re-engagement campaigns, let's, let's do that in intelligent way based on that customer's profile.
So I think it's gonna become much more personalized, targeting those customers when they want it, when they need it, based on that past behavior.
How do you, how do you figure out when they want it?
So we, we have all these trigger points. Their, their sentiment from the inbound messaging. When they respond, we're engaging them.
That's, I mentioned, that's a byproduct. As we ask for the referral, for example, they're following up saying, Hey, can you guys come out tomorrow to fix my hvac?
Mm-hmm.
And we, and then we trigger the booking link. Say, Hey, yeah, of course, here's the booking link. Let's get you booked. So we're offloading a lot of that work from the CSR.
In some cases, it obviously will push that back to the CSR if, if they don't book, it'll get pushed to them. But they can book automatically. So it's taking those, those inbound messages. What's the sentiment of that customer? [00:38:00] How, how many rever, how many referrals have they sent? How much have they spent with us?
How many reviews, whatever kind of trigger action you wanna track in those engagements, we can track and then cater those follow-ups to that. So it's a blend of that. What, what's that customer experiencing as well as what do we know works in the messaging. So we blend, hey, here's the, like we mentioned, the personalized approach of the incentive amount.
Mm-hmm. The technician's name. The timing of what, what service was completed. If, if you know those things and can reference that in the message, that becomes much more powerful. Two or three indicators. Yeah. That it's, it's a personalized message versus just, Hey, this was sent to everybody and I'm not, I'm not a special customer.
That goes a long way to personalizing that. So I think moving into the future, it's, it's engaging them in a personalized way, letting them feel special so that they come back and use you again, but that they also trust you to refer each of your friends and family.
Yeah. That is, that is interesting. I feel like, um, yeah, it's like V three maybe.
'cause a lot of V one was like [00:39:00] even review requests, I think right now are review requests. We've gone through different sections of personalized versus not.
Yeah. It's
always better personalized. Uh, I think right now it's not, and I don't remember why. Um, but yeah, conversion rate's huge. Like we go from like a 5% review rate to like 19 or 20, like just like,
yeah,
changing a little bit of like.
Hey.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and we're building in. I mean, you've seen those ab tests that that's a crazy, that's a crazy change. We're building that into the platform too. Yeah. So you can see not only your results of AB testing on those campaigns and what the return was on that campaign versus another one, but also the data now from across the country, all these other businesses.
Using that you can tap into that data and say mm-hmm. What, what works and what doesn't. Not, not anything personalized obviously, but just generally speaking, we, we can AB test across. Millions and millions of end users now to understand what drives behavior and then embed that in your campaign. So you're not just getting a platform to run a program, you're getting the ability to [00:40:00] understand what works based on millions of data points across the country.
So yeah, organic, you know, you send it to a text and hey, good luck. Hope, hope you guys connect and work out. Yeah, that's great. That works. Uh, in no way are we saying that's not, that's not a good business practice. It is. We're just taking that and saying, Hey, let's be proactive. And then like you said, V three is, let's be.
Personal about that. Yeah, yeah. On proactive and, and automated. Let's be personal and use those touch points. Use what we know to, to drive higher campaigns and higher conversion ratios there.
Yeah, that makes sense. Some something I think, um, I'm, I'm imagining people having an issue with, uh, um, like paying for a referral, but I was, we, we just bought, we bought two companies last week and one of 'em we like opened up their ads account.
And, uh, it was, it was fun. Like we've, we see this all the time with Wilson. Yeah. But we, we have to rebuy our customers all the time. Yeah. It's like, it's one of the most annoying Yeah. Um, things that happens because, [00:41:00] because we're reactivating, right? Like we are talking to them, we are reaching out. We're, we're, we're doing all this stuff.
Uh, but like, we'll, we'll acquire the customer from Angie's List and like, they'll still use us. And then we'll get them from Google Ads and they'll still use us. Then we'll get them from LSA and they'll still use, so I spent like $200 Yeah. For, for three different jobs to acquire the same customer, just repeatedly.
Um, which I, one I just think is generally funny. And two, just 'cause someone's in your database, um, doesn't mean that like they'll probably still Google Wilson Plumbing. And if you have the setting set up for LSA, like you might still pay for that lead. Like LSA will charge you 50 bucks for a branded search.
Yeah. Which is funny, so like, yeah, I think we're, we're always, we're always paying for something.
Yeah. No, I agree with you. I think for the most part people, I mean, if you look at, Hey, how much do you pay Google on an annual basis, right?
Yeah. Um, like we pay a million.
Oh yeah. That's, that's good. It's great.
Um,
it's honestly lower than it used to be. A million's [00:42:00] like Yeah,
yeah.
Hell yeah. It used to be too.
It's improving. That's,
yeah. That's great.
But if you look at, Hey, I, I spent a million dollars on Google versus the, the ROI on my referral campaign for incremental referrals.
Oh yeah. I'm
sure. And that x amount, whatever we spent, you know, in incentives back to our customers
Yeah.
Is a fraction of that. Yeah. And, and it goes to. To, to your point of, Hey, it's going to our customer, so now they're excited, like, we're, we're investing in our customer. It's not, it's not the same dollar spent, that dollar spent has a much greater chance of coming back as a repeat customer than the dollar to Google, I think.
Yeah.
And so just looking at one, the ROI and conversion rate on those leads, it, it drops your cost on the close side because those converted to high ratio. So you either need, you have more effective. Sales reps and CSRs, but also that dollar spent goes back to your customer. So they're, they're excited.
You're, you're investing in your customer.
Yeah. I'm pretty into that.
And your employee. I think it's huge on the employee side too. I
mean, ServiceTitan like, just even drawing from tech, but like, so much of it was referral driven.
Yeah.
Like I, the referral bonuses were huge in the, in the beginning. You're like, I think they [00:43:00] give trucks away or something now.
Yeah. But yeah, it's a lot. It makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Our, our buddies are the ones that. They win those trucks is, I mean, it's an awesome program. Yeah. We're obviously big believers in referrals and we know, yeah. We know the team at ServiceTitan who runs that referral program. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Um, so we're big believers in that, and it's, yeah, taking care of your affiliates, your customers, your and your employees.
When your employees feel bought in and they're getting spiffed on those, they're, they're gonna keep doing it and they're more likely gonna stick around. Yeah. So you're, you're solving a retention problem at the same time when you get them excited and bought in and, and they're making money, they're making an extra.
X amount every month because they drove five new referral leads that converted and, and, you know, drove 60 5K in business for, for the company. That's, it's pretty powerful.
Yeah. No, that is, that's pretty cool. Uh, what's your biggest, what do you think, uh, my biggest win would be if we start doing this?
Yeah.
A revenue, I mean,
yeah,
tons. Uh, for a business like Wilson, it's, it's a huge amount of revenue that comes in the door and it's incremental and, and it's also a byproduct of reengaging those customers. And obviously we can look at [00:44:00] how you already do that today, but. It's a natural way to reengage your customers.
You're asking them for referrals and, and offering them incentives.
Yeah.
And as a byproduct, they're gonna come back and use you as well, so you're not having to rebuy those. It's, it's, uh, and it's, and it's trackable data, getting your, I think when you have as many trucks as you do. Getting that rolled out with your employees, that's another really valuable channel.
Yeah, that's pretty cool. What's, what's the biggest warning? Like, where would I trip?
I think, uh, not, not, uh, following up on the call on the leads. Mm-hmm. I think I, I don't think that's an issue for you though. Mm-hmm. Most of, most of the big businesses that have an operation are, are using ServiceTitan.
That's not the issue for them. So. So you probably are, are good on that side
because it jumps into like a speed delete or
Yeah. Yeah. Speed. Delete. Whether it's in the refer Pro campaign or you know, if you use whatever program, whatever you using, whatever. We integrate with a lot of different tools. So
yeah,
I think the other one is we can automate the incentives.
If not, you can do like a one tut, one click, like automate that and push it's
snap. Paying out
the businesses that, yeah, the businesses that pay those out. Those out the fastest, the better. So we can automate that if you're good with it. If not, we can set up a [00:45:00] kind of a OneTouch system so you can at least approve those.
Yeah. But the businesses that are doing that. Um, seeing hundreds of thousands of dollars in the first month and then, and then building on that.
Yeah,
that's really
interesting.
They have such a fast turnaround time. I think that's the number one thing is just the better you use the tool, the better it works.
And that's probably the number one thing is just making sure you call those leads and follow up and, and have a good business practice there, and then that you incentivize and reward those customers on the back end. Those are the two, two levers we can pull.
Yeah. Hell yeah. Awesome. Dude, this was awesome.
Yeah, I think, um, I, I get it more. Um, which was my goal today, like I get it more for the homeowner. Um, B2B, it just makes total sense to me.
Yeah.
Uh, it, it almost like active it. Allows us to do things we were never, never able to do before. Maybe we could have figured it out, but, um, like home inspectors and realtors and really being able to like professionalize that.
Yeah,
like something we liked the idea of was, uh, like wine Wednesdays or, you know, pick a thing, but like invite all the realtors [00:46:00] over, get 'em onto this. Fucking pyramid scheme basically. Yeah. And be like, yeah, we'll pay you 500. You know, then you go get somebody and we'll pay them $500. Uh, I always wanted to launch a pyramid scheme, so this is hopefully my chance.
This is your chance. This is it, man. This is it. Uh, but yeah, it all, it always made total sense for that. But the, but the customer one was like just knowing my own behavior. Like I would probably be amongst the 17% that would not refer. Yeah. Just 'cause I don't know that I've ever thought to do that. Yeah. Um.
I guess professionally we do it all the time, but, but personally, I, I don't know. Uh, usually it's like, I don't know. That guy didn't communicate very well. I don't know if you want to talk to him.
Yeah.
Um, but I, I think, I think it makes sense, uh, just given how many referrals we receive. So I, I think I'm kind of into it.
And I like the technician part too, 'cause I think, uh. That personalizes the whole, the whole deal.
Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and I think the hardest thing is anyone who's tried to do this manually before joining Refer Pro. Most people don't try to do, don't do anything. There are, yeah. We [00:47:00] don't try to do it manually.
Right. They're using spreadsheets and they're doing gift cards.
Yeah.
If it's hard to do, it doesn't happen. Yeah. Yeah. We're too busy in our businesses too much. There's too many high priorities, and so if you leave it to try to let it happen organically, you'll get some of that. But to automate and put a system in place, that's the power of where we're headed with technology.
Just let that, let that take care of itself. Put that on, not on the back burner. You need to be active in certain parts of it, but let the automation take over and drive revenue that you otherwise would not be getting.
Yeah.
And the ROI is off the charts on that. Yeah. So I think the biggest risk is just saying, oh, we'll just, we'll just let this happen organically or let our technicians ask.
They're just not gonna do it. Mm-hmm. So that's what we see.
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on today. I feel like I got a good education on how referral marketing works.
Yeah. Thanks for having me, John. Great to be here. Fun to chat.
Awesome.
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